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snorkackcatcherRegarding the latest Your Kink Is Not Okay! post on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
metafandom (by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
redsambuca) and the inevitable YES IT IS THEN! response (by hector_rashbaum): is it just me, or is the general tone of the latter awfully reminiscent of Steve Vander Ark's blithering about how he should be able to have the right to publish whatever he wants without anyone harshing his squee with legalities or questions of ethics or common sense?
Yes, in both cases the party complaining about the complainers (if you see what I mean) can construct a case that it's perfectly all right to do this, on the grounds of free speech, personal expression, apple pie and so on, and are claiming to be fighting on behalf of fandom in defence of one of its core principles. And in both cases I find myself headdesking and wanting to say: stop making us look like nutters then. You may well be right, you may not, but whiny entitlement and a complete refusal to notice that people with countervailing views have a point is not impressive, and not likely to convince either.
The gist of this for anyone not followingmetafandom is the running sore of whether fics depicting things generally considered really squicky and offensive, in a manner that's basically just pr0ny wankfodder, should be condemned, tolerated, or celebrated. As I understand it, the fic the original poster was offended by was a piece of MCR RPS in which one of the Way brothers is regularly leading the other into the woods with the promise of ice-cream, and then proceeding to abuse him, without any in-story comeback. (No, I'm not bloody stupid enough to go check and put the URL on the records of my ISP.) Both posts linked above get their fury on; the money quotes would seem to be redsambuca's "We CANNOT maintain to livejournal and to the public at large that fandom as a whole is AGAINST child abuse if we let fics like this slide" and hector_rashbaum's "I don't ever, ever consider it okay to tell someone their fantasies are Unacceptable".
Leaving aside the ethics and legalities of RPF (I understand that the most common view is that it's really about constructed public profiles, not the real people, though if a subject of same ever did sue for libel I suspect you'd need a Cochran-quality lawyer to make that view stick in court) -- to be honest, I have a lot more sympathy with the first view than the second. Especially when it's presented as something I'm supposed to defend vigorously in order to be a Member of Fandom in Good Standing.
Hmm. Let's consider an analogy here. As a Brit, I might not think lager-fuelled wankers getting boisterous in foreign climes deserve to be thrown into hellhole jails for long periods, and would argue against same if I ever had to in a RL situation -- but I really, really wish they wouldn't do it, their thoughtlessness make my entire country look bad. Their kink is understandable but you'd need to squint to consider it okay. To take another quote from Ms Rashbaum: "I'll say this now: I get off on this kind of fic". Come on now, folks: in all honesty, that's the kind of statement that would take some serious deconstruction to not find really, really creepy. I can see how you could parse it so it wasn't, but don't expect most people in fandom to have any great enthusiasm for doing so, and absolutely don't expect most people not in fandom to even try.
Yes, there are perfectly good reasons why someone might write such fics -- e.g. exploration of deviant psychologies, or as a way of working through real-life abuse. The flipside is that there are also crappy reasons for writing them -- e g. a desire to be edgier-than-thou, or for pure zero-depth PWPish titillation. On which topic, Ms Rashbaum disagrees (yes, I did check it was a woman writing -- I think we'd all have far less of a not-a-pervert-really presumption if it was a man):
"Aside from the problem I have with the idea that titillation in and of itself isn't a valid reason to share fantasies of dubious moral fiber, one wonders whoredsambuca would have judge the merits of child molestation fic to determine whether they were "valid" - that's a highly subjective set of criteria. I interpreted that fic very differently than redsambuca, as did a number of commenters - who's right? And who gets to say which one of us has a more valid interpretation, or that an unfavorable interpretation overrules the creator's right to share?"
I'm glad you asked that question. The answer: that's what communities do. They give you a distribution of opinion. Are exploring your sexual kinks and getting off good things? Yes -- some of the time. They're just not the sole relevant consideration. Sometimes, doing so goes beyond the pale, despite the fact that it's fantasy -- especially when kids are the subject. True, like many things in life, the merits of the issue can't be decided except on a case-by-case basis -- which is why I can't really see why fics of this kind should be any more immune from fannish outrage, excoriation, and general shunning by people who find them offensive than fics/posts found to be racist, anti-Semitic, heterosexist or whatever. In both cases, it's not banning. It's not censorship. It's an expression of community opinion. The fic/post isn't going to be forcibly removed unless the OP throws a Goodbye Cruel Fandom strop, but they now have a reality check. Maybe the community is wrong -- but maybe they're not and it really isn't okay this time.
So, I suppose after that I should specify some actual suggestions for people writing questionable fic (should anybody care). Er, basically just use common sense and don't get lost in fandom, that's all. If you're writing something questionable, at least have the awareness to know it's questionable. Lots of people are not going to want to see it or find it okay, especially so if the slant is clearly all about getting off on it. Keep it among consenting adults unless you're really, specifically trying to piss people off (and if you do, be prepared for the backlash). Plaster it with the appropriate warnings. Keep it for comms with mostly like-minded people, or at least those sufficiently inured to just roll their eyes and pass on. Don't get all precious about it and cry ZOMGOPRESHUN. Use common sense.
Eh, it's an old familiar subject, and the above ramble isn't meant to be the, or even my, last word. But it's the best edited knee-jerk reaction can provide.
metafandom (by redsambuca) and the inevitable YES IT IS THEN! response (by hector_rashbaum): is it just me, or is the general tone of the latter awfully reminiscent of Steve Vander Ark's blithering about how he should be able to have the right to publish whatever he wants without anyone harshing his squee with legalities or questions of ethics or common sense?Yes, in both cases the party complaining about the complainers (if you see what I mean) can construct a case that it's perfectly all right to do this, on the grounds of free speech, personal expression, apple pie and so on, and are claiming to be fighting on behalf of fandom in defence of one of its core principles. And in both cases I find myself headdesking and wanting to say: stop making us look like nutters then. You may well be right, you may not, but whiny entitlement and a complete refusal to notice that people with countervailing views have a point is not impressive, and not likely to convince either.
The gist of this for anyone not following
metafandom is the running sore of whether fics depicting things generally considered really squicky and offensive, in a manner that's basically just pr0ny wankfodder, should be condemned, tolerated, or celebrated. As I understand it, the fic the original poster was offended by was a piece of MCR RPS in which one of the Way brothers is regularly leading the other into the woods with the promise of ice-cream, and then proceeding to abuse him, without any in-story comeback. (No, I'm not bloody stupid enough to go check and put the URL on the records of my ISP.) Both posts linked above get their fury on; the money quotes would seem to be redsambuca's "We CANNOT maintain to livejournal and to the public at large that fandom as a whole is AGAINST child abuse if we let fics like this slide" and hector_rashbaum's "I don't ever, ever consider it okay to tell someone their fantasies are Unacceptable".Leaving aside the ethics and legalities of RPF (I understand that the most common view is that it's really about constructed public profiles, not the real people, though if a subject of same ever did sue for libel I suspect you'd need a Cochran-quality lawyer to make that view stick in court) -- to be honest, I have a lot more sympathy with the first view than the second. Especially when it's presented as something I'm supposed to defend vigorously in order to be a Member of Fandom in Good Standing.
Hmm. Let's consider an analogy here. As a Brit, I might not think lager-fuelled wankers getting boisterous in foreign climes deserve to be thrown into hellhole jails for long periods, and would argue against same if I ever had to in a RL situation -- but I really, really wish they wouldn't do it, their thoughtlessness make my entire country look bad. Their kink is understandable but you'd need to squint to consider it okay. To take another quote from Ms Rashbaum: "I'll say this now: I get off on this kind of fic". Come on now, folks: in all honesty, that's the kind of statement that would take some serious deconstruction to not find really, really creepy. I can see how you could parse it so it wasn't, but don't expect most people in fandom to have any great enthusiasm for doing so, and absolutely don't expect most people not in fandom to even try.
Yes, there are perfectly good reasons why someone might write such fics -- e.g. exploration of deviant psychologies, or as a way of working through real-life abuse. The flipside is that there are also crappy reasons for writing them -- e g. a desire to be edgier-than-thou, or for pure zero-depth PWPish titillation. On which topic, Ms Rashbaum disagrees (yes, I did check it was a woman writing -- I think we'd all have far less of a not-a-pervert-really presumption if it was a man):
"Aside from the problem I have with the idea that titillation in and of itself isn't a valid reason to share fantasies of dubious moral fiber, one wonders who
redsambuca would have judge the merits of child molestation fic to determine whether they were "valid" - that's a highly subjective set of criteria. I interpreted that fic very differently than redsambuca, as did a number of commenters - who's right? And who gets to say which one of us has a more valid interpretation, or that an unfavorable interpretation overrules the creator's right to share?"I'm glad you asked that question. The answer: that's what communities do. They give you a distribution of opinion. Are exploring your sexual kinks and getting off good things? Yes -- some of the time. They're just not the sole relevant consideration. Sometimes, doing so goes beyond the pale, despite the fact that it's fantasy -- especially when kids are the subject. True, like many things in life, the merits of the issue can't be decided except on a case-by-case basis -- which is why I can't really see why fics of this kind should be any more immune from fannish outrage, excoriation, and general shunning by people who find them offensive than fics/posts found to be racist, anti-Semitic, heterosexist or whatever. In both cases, it's not banning. It's not censorship. It's an expression of community opinion. The fic/post isn't going to be forcibly removed unless the OP throws a Goodbye Cruel Fandom strop, but they now have a reality check. Maybe the community is wrong -- but maybe they're not and it really isn't okay this time.
So, I suppose after that I should specify some actual suggestions for people writing questionable fic (should anybody care). Er, basically just use common sense and don't get lost in fandom, that's all. If you're writing something questionable, at least have the awareness to know it's questionable. Lots of people are not going to want to see it or find it okay, especially so if the slant is clearly all about getting off on it. Keep it among consenting adults unless you're really, specifically trying to piss people off (and if you do, be prepared for the backlash). Plaster it with the appropriate warnings. Keep it for comms with mostly like-minded people, or at least those sufficiently inured to just roll their eyes and pass on. Don't get all precious about it and cry ZOMGOPRESHUN. Use common sense.
Eh, it's an old familiar subject, and the above ramble isn't meant to be the, or even my, last word. But it's the best edited knee-jerk reaction can provide.
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no subject
Date: 2008-05-19 10:26 pm (UTC)Yes! Oh, how fandom seems to forget this all the time. But yeah, very much in agreement with you here, and I especially like the football hooligan analogy. :)
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 08:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-19 10:36 pm (UTC)Well, I disagree with you vehemently about both Steve Vander Ark and the
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Date: 2008-05-19 11:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-19 11:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-19 11:07 pm (UTC)YES. Absolutely. I'm seeing more angst on my friendlist about the meaning of words than I ever do about boundaries in fandom. I've just been reading the hector_rashbaum post and there are some comments to it that frankly make me wonder what I'm doing here at all. If fans don't fundamentally realise that some art (and some fanfic) is very, very, very, very dodgy then...gah. Why am I supposed to defend everyone? And why does it seem to be so taboo to say you dislike it? (quite frankly, ESPECIALLY in HP)
Also, quite frankly, TOS exist to tell you your fantasy is unacceptable. The libertarian posturing by some people makes me want to bang their heads together. We have limits, we have ratings, we have boundaries. Boundaries are bloody brilliant. Graaargh.
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Date: 2008-05-20 12:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 02:02 am (UTC)There's a difference between legality and good taste, but both are good things :)
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Date: 2008-05-20 12:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 08:09 am (UTC)My thoughts exactly!
Do the people ranting about restrictions on their freedoms to post about certain forms of sexual behaviour, deliver the same broadside against the social restrictions on people whose ‘kink’ may be, ooh, to pick a recent fandom example, “miscegenation”? I’ve seen Birth of a Nation, and it is not a nice film. It’s beautiful to look at, and to be honest I found a lot to enjoy in watching it – it’s got great cinematography, a stirring score, fantastic action scenes etc. It is designed to be enjoyable in this way *. If it weren’t, it would not be a successful vector for its nasty message. It’s an important part of film history, and I would not want to ban it from cinemas, but nor would I want it to be shown on BBC1 on Bank Holiday Monday afternoons, nor for someone to do a shot-by-shot re-make** and it be considered fine family viewing. This is not because Obviously I am Aware and thus understand that what I am watching is Not Right, but others are Not So Ethically Sensitive, but because, well, sometimes something becomes a pariah text for a reason. If I had the DVD on my shelf, then I should not be immune from having to explain myself to someone who doubted my motives. And now I think I've gone miles off-topic, so will close.
*Although I suspect the ability to enjoy the film in this way is reliant on one approaching it from something of a distance, and its nastiness not being personal – if I lived in the American South, and perhaps even if still being British I weren’t white, I can’t see e.g. myself and my seminar neighbour crying with laughter as the Confederate flag is raised to “The Red Flag”, my associations with the tune probably being rather different.
**Actually, I would love a critical re-make of Birth of a Nation in the same style that really dealt with the vileness of the material. But that’s not the same thing!
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 07:16 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 01:34 pm (UTC)How does that analogy work? It refers to real life behaviour, when this argument discusses fiction and fantasises.
And I'm sorry if you feel like I'm making you look like a nutter. I don't feel that I am a nutter, I'm just a normal person who is more in touch with the forces that drive her than most people. I think the battle is to educate naive people about the way the human mind actually functions, rather than to brush anything we think is nasty under the rug. And, honestly, it's not my responsibility to protect your reputation. I'm open about who I am and what I like. I'm not ashamed, because I understand how normal it is.
"I'll say this now: I get off on this kind of fic". Come on now, folks: in all honesty, that's the kind of statement that would take some serious deconstruction to not find really, really creepy."
Uh, well I sometimes get off on that kind of fic, too. The fic in question--which I did read in order to actually be informed--isn't porn. It's a dark, disturbing, non-explicit look at how easily child abuse happens. But that's not the point. The point is--I get off on creepy things when they are presented fictionally. I do not get off on creepy things when they are presented as real. I am a good person and a nice person. I do not hurt anyone. I really think you need to think about this subject objectively, without your squick filter. Like most people coming from your POV, you seem to hit that first wall of "Ew! That's awful!" and then stop and react without thinking things through.
"Keep it among consenting adults unless you're really, specifically trying to piss people off." -- Why should I? I find their anger irrational and don't see why I need to curb myself to the conventional just to make other people with whom I disagree happy. I put clear warnings on all my fics. I see no reason to take responsibility for the reactions of those who ignore those warnings.
So, basically, I found your post very personally insulting. You called me creep, you called me stupid, precious, entitled, etc. Can you see why I was upset?
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 07:05 pm (UTC)I tried not to upset you, indeed tried to bend over backwards in the original post to repeatedly acknowledge that there are ways to look at this in which it's perfectly valid, partly because I have read posts by you and others who argue more cogently thatn the average "my sexual response is the only thing that's relevant!"
I think you're more thoughtful than that, that's one reason I like you. And I believe that you are a good person, otherwise I wouldn't like to be friends with you. But I do disagree with you on some things like the best approach to kinkfic. Believe me, I have spent time thinking about this, far more than I really have time for. And it's not squick reaction -- these days, little surprises me, not even real life atrocities like the Friedl case after the first shock. I wish it did.
As for creepy -- eh, I'm a man. I get called creepy by implication all the bloody time in LJ posts, if I wanted to consider them to be personally aimed at me. Hell, I probably am creepy. I don't feel particularly content embracing that, because I don't personally find the fiction/reality divide as much of a bright line as some people do -- if situation X is a turn-on in fiction, it probably means that I'm wired to find situation X arousing. I have too much of a bad habit of living too much within my own head to imagine that it's impossible for that to spill over into real life. Other things like anger, frustration etc do, why not sexual response? I might find that it didn't in real life, but why push my luck if situation X is something clearly objectively dodgy, even if I don't find it subjectively squicky? My sexual response is not the only thing that's relevant. If others can successfully compartmentalise -- and know that they're succeeded -- then the best of British luck to them.
I do think in particular that the wider context of reaction outside fandom is relevant. You say "it's not my responsibility to protect your reputation" and no, it's not, but you'll remember that
Anyway, as I said, I've spent too much time going over this that I should have spent looking for somewhere to live. :) There are lots of angles to the situation that I can see, the above is just what comes to mind at the moment, and I sometimes (often?) get carried away in my own prose and don't always imply what I thought I was saying. But that's the best I can do for the moment.
no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 08:44 pm (UTC)Just this one thing "if situation X is a turn-on in fiction, it probably means that I'm wired to find situation X arousing." I can absolutely assure you that this is not the case with me or my many friends who also like non-con and/or chan.
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Date: 2008-05-20 10:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-05-20 10:05 pm (UTC)I even agree with some of your suggestions (above all the plastering with warnings) although not so much with 'questionable fic' cause while I definitely don't think writing any sort of fic is questionable, I do agree there is a lot out there that's *not for everybody*. And since, re. warnings, *everybody* can stay away, I'm not at all fond of fannish outrage/excoriation/general shunning. Above all because I've *never* seen that happen without screams for censorship, and you know me on that and mob mentality too.
I know it's not always easy though - there *are* types of fic that make me see red and wanting to yell (not chan, which I tested my reactions to and it just doesn't emotionally affect me, other topics), and it's bloody hard to just turn away and try not to freak about that they *exist*, but... I'm not going to tell anybody they can't write xyz, because it would mean allowing others to tell me I can't write abc. And that's the crucial thing about censorship/silencing/you name it: defending 'freedom to write' means protecting what makes us uncomfortable - if it made everybody happy, it wouldn't need protection.
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Date: 2008-05-20 11:33 pm (UTC)I have a lot of sympathy with the "you defend my freedom to write, I'll defend yours" view, because I want to be able to explore strange things if I want. But like many views that get me into arguments, I won't make it an absolute principle. I reserve the right to say: "No." I wouldn't want to invoke it unless absolutely necessary, but will for something really questionable -- by which here I mean about a subject that would clearly be a horrible situation in real life, treated in a trivialising manner (that latter is a key point, btw). I think that damn well should be subject to question, to challenge, in the same way as other topics are ad nauseam, or possibly ad absurdum (cf
Stories about the kinks of adults who are consenting -- not interested, but yeah, whatever. If either of those conditions doesn't hold -- well, I think what bothers me is this. The characters may be fictional (unless it's RPF), but the responses in the reader aren't. They're very real. And while some people are confident that those responses won't bleed over into real life, even subconsciously, I'm not. Not even about me, let alone some random person on the internet I've never heard of.
If provoking those responses is basically the sole point of the fic, as determined by text, giggly author's notes, self-congratulatory replies to comments etc? Well, in such cases I have no problem with making the statement "you shouldn't have written this" -- yes, shouldn't, a value judgement, argue I'm judging wrong by all means but don't provoke my sense of ire and irony by saying that 'shouldn't' shouldn't be allowed -- or even "if you get off on this, you might want to take a bit of a critical look at your reactions before deciding they're okay". It's not -- repeat not, repeat again NOT -- a call for bannination. It's a call to the writer to ask "do you really want to go there?"
And if they do? Frustrating, but not a problem -- unless outsiders get involved. The common nonfan reaction to these fics if noticed is going to be "this is sick sick sick!" -- indeed that's going to be the reaction to much entirely vanilla stuff -- and in the former case, that's not unreasonable. Many fans have the same reactions, dammit, however much they're desensitised or bend over backwards to be tolerant. Yes, fans can explain why it's not really sick if you deconstruct it the right way, using evidence from psychology, literary theory, and for all I know postmodernism -- if the nonfans are willing to listen, and agree, instead of Taking Action. In that case, a Dursleyesque request to the controversial areas of fandom to stay in their room out of sight until things have blown over would be fair. As I said above, quid pro quo -- if I'm supposed to defend something I find unpleasant, I'd prefer to be met half-way, even if we have to work out what distance that is as we go along. I'm just not impressed with the argument that there's no need to move at all.