A little bit of R/T puzzlement

[snorkackcatcher]

A post-DH Remus/Tonks trope that doesn't quite sound right to me.

Maybe it's just me and I haven't been looking in the right places (very possible, I've kind of lost enthusiasm for Remus/Tonks fic since DH), but there seems to be a common assumption that Remus had abandoned her before arriving at Grimmauld Place -- but then after his fight with Harry, he went back and the two of them had blazing rows about him walking out before reconciling.

Er ... dunno?

They were together at Bill and Fleur's wedding, where Tonks, at least, was happy and Remus was still trying to fake it when she was looking and doing a decent job of it. When he turns up exhausted at 12GP, it's only three days later, and he states that he intended to come directly there but first had to shake off a Death Eater tailing him^(*). From his description of what happened after the Trio escaped, the Order members evidently had a lot of other stuff to occupy their attention, and it sounds like he'd been away most of those three days.

Sure, he could have walked out, but to me it reads more like Tonks quite happily and unknowingly waved him off on his mission to find Harry as soon as the dust had settled, and that he kept any plans to leave her behind entirely to himself. (Secretive!Remus isn't totally uncanonical, right?) After all, he didn't know he'd find Harry there, or what kind of mission he was planning, and his argument to Harry isn't "it doesn't matter, I've already left her" but rather "she'll be all right if I come with you".

In other words, Tonks may well not even have known about any of this (assuming that Remus had the sense not to mention it on his return after talking with Harry), and thus they had no reason to row about it?

(*) Bonus query which again has always puzzled me: how exactly was the DE tailing him? Remus himself says a few lines later that "it's impossible to track anyone who Apparates unless you grab hold of them as they disappear".

Comments

[mrstater.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you for putting these thoughts out here! I haven't gotten around to writing much DH fic myself, but one of the things I intend to address when I get around to it is that when I first read DH (and my conviction of this has only solidified with subsequent readings) my impression was that Remus got to GP with a whole lot of stress and not much of a plan beyond offering help and protection to Harry.

His utter lack of composure in the scene is a sharp contrast against the deliberation and well-rehearsed self-denying speeches of HBP, which tells me that if Remus had been planning to accompany Harry as a way to get out of his marriage, he'd have been a lot more pulled together, more like the mysterious Remus we've seen before. Instead we get a Remus who can't keep it together, who's very obviously just had a series of shocks (whatever happened with Tonks and her job, an unplanned pregnancy, being interrogated for hours by Death Eaters, watching his wife be interrogated for hours by Death Eaters, his in-laws being tortured, three days on the run from a Death Eater). And as you've pointed out, Remus says "she'll be all right," as if marital obligations are an afterthought compared to duty. At this point, Remus is such emotionally strung-out that I think it would have been more obvious that he and Tonks had been quarreling over this if that were the case.

And why should they quarrel over it? Dumbledore doesn't seem to have left the Order with much of a plan other than Protect Harry At All Costs. Remus is the obvious Order member to do this; and I'm sure Tonks would encourage it, if not volunteer to go herself, if she weren't pregnant.

I really think Remus' offer to help had much less to do with wanting to run away and abandon Tonks and the baby than Harry made out; but Harry did it so badly that he put Remus on the defensive, and all Remus' insecurities spilled out because he was too frazzled at this point to rein himself in.

I'm also with you on Remus having no real need to tell Tonks about any fleeting notions he may have had about leaving, after Harry rejected his offer of help, and gave Remus a lecture he really didn't need. (At least that's how I'll be writing it, lol.) It's obvious that Remus wants to be with his wife and child, and I just can't see after HBP that he would really digress fully into the martyr complex after the telling off he got in DH Chapter 11.

People need to cut poor Remus some slack, and personally I think Harry deserved to be hexed into a wall. Or oblivion. ;)

And on a slight tangent...

They were together at Bill and Fleur's wedding, where Tonks, at least, was happy and Remus was still trying to fake it when she was looking and doing a decent job of it.

I don't think Remus is that great of an actor. Harry misses a lot, but as an Auror Tonks must be much better at reading people. I must give her credit not to be out of touch with reality. Seeing how emotionally attuned they are to each other in HBP, I can't believe she would be such a picture of a blissful bride if Remus weren't just as happily married as she is, beneath the doubtful demeanor Harry sees at his birthday in the wedding. (Remus seems totally fine in the previous scenes, and can anyone blame him for being nervous when in a more public setting, given what he says about how he's treated outside the Order?)

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, he seems to be playing it by ear a bit during the meeting with the Trio -- but then, if he'd been away for three days he'd have had time to brood over the matter ... It seems to have been the news of Tonks's pregnancy (and possibly earlier her being fired as an Auror, if that's what happened?) that set him thinking this way, possibly? At The Burrow he seemed angry at her risking herself, but not upset at this level. He's not entirely wrong in his assessment, but it's probably a bit late to be leaving now. I did cheer Harry when he took charge like that. :)

[mrstater.livejournal.com]

Oh, see I thought the Burrow was raw fear making him speechless at first, and then gruff because he's still way stressed out from that broom flight -- I think what happened to George right behind him, and that it was Snape, and that Voldemort was right there in the thick of it, had a lot more to do with Remus' attitude there then anything about Tonks risking herself. And then he finds out Bellatrix was specifically trying to kill Tonks, knowing that it must be because of their marriage...Bit of guilt creeping in there, too, I think!

[snorkackcatcher]

Maybe -- he's the only one for whom sounding 'almost angry' is specifically mentioned. A common enough reaction to being scared stiff at her being late, it does sound as if there was some existing worry he had with that, not helped by then learning about Bellatrix. :)

[msavi.livejournal.com]

Remus struck me as so...furtive and spurious in that scene with Harry that I kind of just presumed that he was trying to sneak away without having to face Tonks with his cowardice about their relationship. I never imagined that he'd given her a Dear Jane letter or that they'd had a fight and he'd left, or anything like that. He was looking for an excuse to do something like that. Harry wouldn't give him one.

[snorkackcatcher]

'Looking for an excuse to sneak away' sounds exactly like Remus, and fits that scene. I was cheering Harry on there. :)

[jesspallas.livejournal.com]

I remember we touched on this when you were betaring ALMT for me and the idea I'm going with (and hope to write for an rt_challenge prompt if I have time to) is pretty much as you say above but that when he went back, he told her the truth about what had gone through his mind because he didn't want to lie to her. Hence the (rather hormonal) slap mentioned in ALMT.

[snorkackcatcher]

Did we? *thinks* Oh yes, we did, didn't we? I thought it was a later quibble. :) As for telling her everything -- I'm not sure I would in his place. Let sleeping ... wolves lie. :)

[gilpin25.livejournal.com]

I'd always assumed he left her at her parents with no set plan, but mind a painful whirl with recent, horrific events and oh-my-god-this-is-all-my-fault! syndrome. That three days of tracking them down, a lot more mind whirling, and evading DE's meant that by the time he'd got to Harry and sussed them out to a degree, he could volunteer for a mission in which he could be the sacrificial lamb and spare his family a lot of misery to come etc., etc.

So I don't think Tonks necessarily knew anything of it at all beforehand, though I'm sure she knew him pretty well by then and what might happen in the way of crazy volunteering, Gryffindor-style. As for when he came back - I think he'd tell her because it sems pretty clear that by the end of DH he, and they, were very happy as a family and that he'd finally got it. So I'll be writing that he got there by being honest and no longer such a Secretive!Remus. ;)

No idea about the tailing DE... Must have been very clever.

And there must be something wrong with me, because I find Remus hexing Harry just a bit amusing. "Don't you dare lecture me, I'm another father figure in your life!"

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, it struck me that his situation changed drastically at the wedding, when the new regime came in. It wouldn't be a surprise if he didn't have a clear plan -- even at 12GP, he's being secretive and not keen on telling Harry & Co what's happening in his personal life.

Mind you, I think he'd have more sense than to tell her everything when he got back. :)

Remus hexing Harry is rather ironic. I must admit I was cheering Harry on in that scene!

[gilpin25.livejournal.com]

Mind you, I think he'd have more sense than to tell her everything when he got back. :)

Oh, I didn't mean a Jeremy Kyle-style total confession. Just a Remus-style, baring the cagey soul one. ;)

Any chance of rekindling your R/T fic enthusiasm, or is it the DH fics you're not keen on?

[snorkackcatcher]

I don't mind old OotP era ones. It's just that canon R/T ended up as a bunch of angst in HBP, followed in DH first by more angst, then being a target in wartime, then Looming Tragedy. It's odd in that I don't mind James/Lily which has the same sort of sudden and brutal end -- but then the point with them is that (a) it was key to the plot and (b) we knew about that right from the start and didn't have time to get attached to the characters and hope they'd grow old and grey together. I just have a sense of "what a waste" when contemplating R/T these days -- don't get me wrong, that's what made killing them off effective, but I still wince!

[gilpin25.livejournal.com]

You sound like me. ;)

[katyscarlett76.livejournal.com]

Here via hogwarts_today

Thanks for voicing this! I have to say I agree with you. I do think that Remus went off insearch of Harry without telling Tonks that he planned to abandon her, because personally I don't think she'd have let him go that easily! And as you point out they didn't really have a lot of time for intense heart to hearts with everything else that was going on. I have a clear picture in my mind that he was all "you take care of your parents darling, I'm just going to go see if Harry's ok".

One thing I'm not sure about is how long Remus was away from her, did he go back straight away after the confrontation with Harry or mope about a bit first, for a couple of weeks, a few days?? And did he then tell her that he had planned to abandon her? Or maybe just talk about his fears without mentioning that? I would hope that he was at least partially honest and told her how he'd been feeling even if he didn't mention about the possibly leaving her thing. (This is all now fuelling fic ideas in my head!!)

As for the Death Eater tailing him, the impression I had was that he was checking all the places he thought the trio would be and that the Death Eaters would be doing the same, leading to duels etc in various locations. That just my idea anyway.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, on reflection the thought may have occurred to him when he heard the news of what was happening over the weekend while he was trying to find Harry, and realised that their situation had changed -- the Ministry was no longer basically sound even though anti-werewolf, it was actually being run by Death Eaters.

Interesting question as to how long he'd stay away -- he might take a day or even two to think it over, but seems to have been genuinely remorseful, so probably not too long once he'd calmed down and thought about it for a bit?

[tree_and_leaf]

I can't come up with a clever explanation for the tailing (unless he'd been hit with some sort of anti-apparition jinx he first had to break), but I think you're right about your interpretations of his behaviour. He's insanely secretive by nature, and is obviously in a state of flat panic to boot. I put his behaviour at the wedding down not to not loving Tonks, but to fear of drawing unpleasant attention to her (though he doesn't seem to realise that she's fairly irrevocably thrown her bonnet over the windmill).

I think he probably tried to pull a Captain Oates on her ("just going to help Harry, may be some time"), and she may well not have realised that's what he was doing. Actually, it's quite possible he hadn't made up his mind until some point during the three days, so it wouldn't require her to be quite as unperceptive as fandom sometimes makes her not to.

I expect they had some sort of conversation where Remus admitted how his fears had made him want to distance himself, and told her he felt differently now; I'm not sure how explicit he would have been about what he'd planned to do, and I think it would have been both stupid and unkind to have done so (that strikes me as the sort of confession which has got as much to do with egotism as actual repentance).

ETA: I could buy Tonks being afraid that he might throw himself heroically to his death and believe he was doing everyone a favour, and could see her ready for a row when he came back along the lines of him taking unnecessary risks... but as an Auror she might equally feel that duty was duty and she had no right to complain, however glad she was to see him back, and however angry she secretly felt.

[snorkackcatcher]

'Thrown her bonnet over the windmill'? Like the phrase, although I don't think I've heard it before. :)

I think it would fit that he didn't have any clear plan in mind when starting out, just a sort of Oates style self-sacrifice -- or martyr complex in Remus's case -- and I think you're right about what he would have said on his return. Telling her everything just wouldn't help and would hurt.

[jdbracknell.livejournal.com]

There's every chance I'm wrong because I've still only read DH once, but I think you're probably right about Tonks knowing about his mission. I think it's beyond dispute that he would be a reasonably valuable asset to Harry and she will be fine without him, and it's perfectly logical that he might have been looking for Harry since the wedding. We saw in HBP how they're both willing to make sacrificies for the sake of the war, and while I see the appeal of the super-angsty 'OMG he's left her again' argument, I'm not sure it's entirely on the money. I think it's very plausible that he's not really made up his mind about what he's going to do about Tonks, and he welcomes the idea of some space to try and sort his head out - I really do see Remus as the run-and-hide type when he's got a lot on his mind.

I'm completely undecided about whether it is any kind of attempt to leave her (but then I'm not entirely convinced he actually left her entirely during HBP, so maybe that's just me, lol).

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, that sounds about right. HBP is an interesting one -- they'd clearly talked about marriage before, and that scene in the hospital wing could well be about reluctance to publicly acknowledge the ongoing relationship via a wedding more than reluctance to get involved with her at all -- especially as they did get married fairly shortly afterwards. There was probably at least a temporary breakup during the first half of the HBP year, but that didn't necessarily last until the end.

[mrstater.livejournal.com]

Oh yes -- after how quickly they got married in DH, I thought that if I were writing an extensive canon-faithful fic, the dispute in HBP would be more about whether they could be married than simply whether they could have a relationship. I may explore it yet. ;)

[jdbracknell.livejournal.com]

Am wrestling with this very issue at the moment in my epic and so far I haven't come to any firm conclusions about how and when there might have been a break-up, although I think my best guess is either that he breaks things off when Dumbledore sends him to the werewolves, or after the Montgomery boy is attacked - both of which I think would speak to his inherent insecurities about what he is. I'm going with the latter option - I'll let you know how much of a mistake it was later, lol.

[snorkackcatcher]

I might go earlier rather than later, personally -- based on Tonks's loss of powers and the fact that they aren't together at Christmas at The Burrow. After that, there's a long gap with no appearances by Remus where all sorts of things could happen. :)

[jdbracknell.livejournal.com]

That was my initial plan, but as I was writing it, there never seemed to be the right motivation for him to actually leave her at that point, and it started to make more sense that although they wouldn't be together for most of HBP, there'd be a specific incident that would precipitate him actually saying the words (and then the million arguments). Although now I'm really liking the idea that they're not together at Christmas, then at some point between then and the hospital wing scene they have something of a reconciliation, and then he throws his too wobbler just because of what happens to Bill....

[snorkackcatcher]

Hmm, fair point. Might be the shock of life as a normal werewolf that does it -- in that case Tonks's loss of powers would be down to worry over him. Said loss seems specifically linked to depression by JKR (not lovesickness, anyway, another trope I'm not keen on!).

[jncar.livejournal.com]

Here via hogwarts_today

I totally agree with you. I think he told her that someone needed to find Harry and he was the best man for the job, so she sent him on his way with no idea at all that he was considering not coming back. That seems much more in keeping with pre-DH characterization for Remus than him openly leaving her. This is exactly how I wrote it in my first DH-era story about Remus for the first post-DH rt_challenge.

In that same story I also proposed a method for the Death Eater to be tailing him: Remus kept visiting all the places that he thought were likely for Harry to be hiding, and so did the Death Eater, who was really looking for Harry but kept running into Remus instead.

[snorkackcatcher]

Seems likely, doesn't it?

Interesting idea re tailing -- only quibble is that Remus said "I'd have been here three days ago" if it hadn't been for the DE, suggesting it was where he wanted to get to all along?

[gwendolyngrace.livejournal.com]

Saw this in daily_snitch and popped over to read.

I have a slightly different interpretation, given that I'm a dyed-in-the-wool R/S shipper, but I've come to accept at least a surface interpretation of DH.

First off, I should admit that when I first read the scene, I was going quickly (and finding Remus scenes painful) and I missed that he was really any more serious than just thinking out loud.

But despite that, I was rock-solid certain that Tonks knew (and approved) of his going to try to help Harry. I think if she were any kind of auror at all (regardless of whether she's still employed at that point), her response would have been, "We're fine here, duck, so go and win the war quick so it'll be safe for our sprog when he makes an appearance." So I never considered that Remus had announced his intention to leave.

Certainly, after making the decision to go back, there would have been absolutely no reason to mention it. And Remus is ordinarily so closed off about everything that I can't see him going out of his way to bring up something so painful and potentially damaging.

I don't happen to think that theirs was a happy relationship beyond the surface. I think Remus was enamoured of the idea of being in love and loved in a "normal" relationship and he was a little taken aback by the force of Tonks's affection, but I don't think that he returned her favour with quite the same level of passion. Love? Yes. Wildly in love? No.

As for rooting for Harry, nope. I wasn't, not at all. Remus was running hot, certainly, and he was uncharacteristically panicking and not sure of his next move, but I thought it was incredibly presumptuous of Harry to wade in and put his own parent-issues onto Remus. Frankly, Harry could have used the help, might have concluded the whole business without months in the forest, and besides, Remus's marital issues are none of Harry's business. Even taken from the standpoint of a friend trying to help, Harry's attitude was condescending and antagonistic, both of which were unnecessary. Calmer conversation could have brought about the same conclusions, without rejecting a sincere (if complicated) offer from the closest thing Harry has left to a parent.

Meh. I like jncar's theory that the DE was hunting for Harry and instead kept finding Remus.

[snorkackcatcher]

The R/T relationship in DH was more fractured than I expected, but we only really see that in the early part of the book between Harry's birthday and Remus's visit to 12GP. It's certainly possible to play it as an unhappy relationship based on HBP and DH, but obviously that's probably not what was intended and therefore a reading against the text.

There certainly was an element of him thinking out loud to Harry.

I suspect Harry was right about what his father would have wanted, although having Remus there might well have helped. It would be an interesting AU to explore what would have happened if he had gone with them -- most of the broad events would have been the same due to the difficulty in finding information, but the dynamics would have been different.

[tegdoh.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree with the idea that Tonks new he was going to try to find and help Harry, and supported him in the effort. She's an Auror, after all, not a damsel in distress, and would understand that Remus is the obvious one to help Harry.

As for Remus, I imagine that the events of the summer may have been disturbing to him on a deeper level--the apparent betrayal of the Order in retrieving Harry mirroring the betrayal of James & Lily by Peter, for example. He's been through one war already, and although LV was defeated it ended rather badly for Remus and his friends. Might he not be pushing Tonks away because he fears he is going to lose her anyway? At least this way, by leaving her, he controls the means of his losing her. Things are going to hell and a handbasket very quickly, he feels out of control, and responds viscerally, convinced that he is going to lose everything again.

Did that make any sense?

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes -- that sounds very much like the sort of thing Remus would do, indeed had probably been doing in HBP. I hadn't thought about the parallel he might see between Peter and Mundungus (although he doesn't know who it is this time), but it would follow that it would affect him more than most.

[nell-aria.livejournal.com]

As to how the DE was tailing Remus, I second jncar's suggestion that since Remus and the DE were both hunting for Harry, they both kept showing up at the same places and it only *seemed* to Remus like the DE was tailing him.

However, another suggestion: at this point the Order (and Remus) do not appear to know about the Taboo, but it is in operation - appears to be right from the moment the DEs take over the Ministry, judging by the rapidity with which the DEs track the trio to the cafe on Tottenham Court Road. So, Remus may have been breaking the Taboo, perhaps simply muttering Voldemort's name under his breath, and brought the DE straight to him without understanding how.

I love tegdoh's explanation of Remus's mindset - the parallels to James and Lily would have haunted Remus as he searched for Harry, and Remus is terrified of how much he has allowed himself to lose. A couple of years before, he would have had nothing, and now he finds himself with a wife and child in the midst of a terrible war. Experience has taught Remus that he loses his loved ones to Voldemort ...