In which it's now safe to go back in the LJ

[snorkackcatcher]

Or in other words, I've finally finished Deathly Hallows and can both read and post spoiler-filled commentaries like this one.


This is obviously a quick first cut, just scattered impressions -- but as I expected, JKR hadn't lost her ability to surprise me (er, if that makes sense).

This was a lot better than HBP -- which in retrospect looks a book for getting all the light-hearted stuff and some plot setup out of the way while there was still time to do so. This one was action and tension pretty much from the start -- until I looked at the TV listings just now to see if there was a JKR interview coming up, I'd completely forgotten the Open golf was on, which is a pretty good testament in itself -- and although it headed into a number of areas that fan theories and stories had predicted (Melindaleo2000, take a bow on a number of them for The Seventh Horcrux), it did them in different ways that generally hadn't been predicted. I especially liked the idea of Voldemort himself leading Harry to the Horcruxes via a return of ScarCam. Not sure about the shades of the Marauders and Lily appearing, or Dumbledore chatting to Harry in the King's Cross Celestial Waiting Room -- I was never entirely keen on that in fic, either -- but here it was done well.

There were still a number of perhaps over-convenient plot coincidences (Ted & Co turning up next to the hidden Trio, Neville getting the chance to pull the Sword out of the Hat), and various told tales (which I quite liked, although I know not everybody does) but hey, we kind of expect some of those, eh?

Great to see that the Trio, Ginny, and Luna all made it through -- although obviously I'm a bit -- no, make that very -- gutted that Remus and Tonks were killed off (I was half-spoiled on the latter when someone commenting at FFN said they hoped I wasn't turned off NTLJ by it), as well as Snape -- three of my favourite characters down in one battle.. On the other hand, I think it's clear that the first two of these were built up as far more important by the fans than JKR ever thought of them as (in hindsight, you can get a hint from the interviews). Ted -- damn. And Fred! I wouldn't have expected him to be the Weasley who bought it (I thought Charlie was a goner for sure). And I'm sorry about Dobby and Colin Creevey buying it, although I suspect many people will cheer the former especially.

(ETA: Forgot about Moody! There seems to be a lot of howls of anguish about the arbitrary killing off of Remus, Tonks, and Snape -- yup, it hurts, but the arbitrariness of death has been one of JKR's points all along, after all, and this fits in with earlier stuff. And frankly, as I said, killing the first two of these off -- always mostly minor characters -- is going to be a lot easier for most readers to take than if one of the main characters from Harry's generation had been killed. JKR's being kind to her readers here -- you know, the silent majority who don't obsess about particular characters and write fanfics about them (ahem) -- not cruel. Ah well, it wouldn't be a HP book without lots of wank fallout. :D)

As for the Deathly Hallows themselves -- a nice little twist, everyone thought this was going to be a collect-the-tokens plot with the Horcruxes. Instead, it was two of them with the Hallows as well. :) No, actually, they were a good idea, adding an element no-one had thought of and setting up the plot twist for Harry surviving another Killing Curse and the defeat of Voldemort. And the Horcrux hunt itself was suitably stretched out and hopeless-seeming until things started happening all at once in the second half of the book.

Good background politics with the early takeover of the Ministry and some truly nasty (Nazi?) stuff going on -- hmm, we never did find out what happened to Umbridge, did we? The whole atmosphere was nicely dark throughout. And although the final battle was indeed at Hogwarts as expected, the rationale behind it being there made sense

Character stuff: Ron leaving Harry and Hermione together for a while and then tackling his demons when confronted with the Horcrux was unexpected but a good touch (way to make the Harmonians both delight and despair in turn). Remus and Tonks getting married and having a baby right away, Remus doing his angsty stuff and Tonks frankly not doing much at all -- blimey (way to make the Wotcher Wolvieites both delight and despair in turn). Keeping the Harry/Ginny romance very much in the background and remembering that Ginny was still young, and having her not get into much of a strop about not taking part, was nicely done (way to ... oh, you know)

I liked Kreacher coming round -- a nice thing. And it was good to see a goblin character and some details about the goblins themselves. Winced at Housewifely!Fleur (hmm ...). The Dumbledore family backstory wasn't just about Aberforth, it really mattered and illuminated the character of Albus himself in an interesting way. Yay for Grindelwald finally cropping up as an important plot strand, along with a lot of other previously throwaway mentions! And Molly taking out Bellatrix -- go Molly! Harry here was his hot-headed self making some horrible mistakes for a long time but also eventually came into his own in terms of maturity, leadership, willingness to sacrifice himself, and working out what the situation was -- good stuff.

And SNAPE! All I have to say there is -- YES! Not only Dumbledore's man through and through, and the former having planned his death with him (under the exact circumstances which I -- admittedly among many others -- expected), but Dumbledore's man because he was in love with Lily (which I'd always thought right from Book 1 and was therefore delighted to see crop up here). The former was kind of confirmed with the news that he'd been lenient with the students who tried to steal the Sword, and the fact that it had been switched for a fake and then left for Harry to find; but it was the appearance of the doe Patronus when they did that was the real 'Ker-ching!' moment that made everything clear.

The epilogue was corny in a way that I suspect a lot of people are going to hate -- I suppose I'm not mad keen on it, but it was OK and it did provide a nice quiet end that left a lot of things not tied up. Which is good from a fanficcish point of view, after all.

So in short, a worthy end to the series IMHO. Right, I can now go and see what other people are saying about it. :)

Comments

[mrstater.livejournal.com]

Remus and Tonks getting married and having a baby right away, Remus doing his angsty stuff and Tonks frankly not doing much at all -- blimey (way to make the Wotcher Wolvieites both delight and despair in turn).

That is one way of putting it.

:: cries ::

[snorkackcatcher]

That's another way of putting it. :)

[tree_and_leaf]

Winced at Housewifely!Fleur (hmm ...)

That was indeed winceworthy - actually, I wondered if she wasn't being kept off the front lines because she was prgenant too. At any rate, their daughter is presumably born very soon post war, since she's of an age to be snogging young Lupin.

One thing that did suddenly strike me is how minor Tonks and Lupin actually are in canon - I blame people like you, Fernwithy and Mrs Tater for distorting my impression....

I'm not mad about the epilogue, either, at least stylistically, but in its defence, it does get a nice balance between reassuring readers that - in the omportant bits - All Ends Well - and still providing room for lots of speculation and fic. Very generous to the fans, actually!

[mrstater.livejournal.com]

One thing that did suddenly strike me is how minor Tonks and Lupin actually are in canon - I blame people like you, Fernwithy and Mrs Tater for distorting my impression....

This occurred to me the other day when I was irritated about them not being in the film more. Writing fic really does distort your impression. And I'm trying really hard to see that these are JKR's characters, and she can do with them as she pleases...But I don't think it's just fanon that makes some of Remus' actions in DH questionable in light of his characterization in previous books, does it? I can't make up my mind how I feel about it, or if I need to just suck it up and write fic around it.

[snorkackcatcher]

It's very much in line with HBP!Remus, and in hindsight probably with PoA!Remus (we don't really get to see much of OotP!Remus) -- we've probably tended to project more onto the character than the author had in mind.

That is the trouble with fic writing; there's a sort of 'character drift' which you try not to let yourself ... er, drift into, but it's a very natural process and something not easy to watch out for.

[mrstater.livejournal.com]

It's very much in line with HBP!Remus, and in hindsight probably with PoA!Remus

Yes, but...there was that implication that he'd actually learned something, and had resolved to face things more courageously, hence the hand-holding. At least that was how it struck me before I ever started writing fic.

[snorkackcatcher]

It looks like the Wolfstar people were more right in their reading of the situation, albeit not for the right reasons. :)

[snorkackcatcher]

Stylistically it's not good, and leaves a lot unsaid -- but yes, it's generous to the fans all right!

One thing that did suddenly strike me is how minor Tonks and Lupin actually are in canon

Yes, exactly -- I'm as guilty as anyone of building up the characters in my own mind by reading and writing fic about them. In actual fact, canon!Tonks gets less interesting with each book, practically with each mention -- even the Metamorphosing never played a plot role, except negatively (to my surprise). And Remus is very far from the noble paragon we've made him out to be (I now think that the nearest I got was probably Change For Me, despite that being what I thought of as a deliberately broken portrayal).

That said, because I became interested in the characters, I'm a lot less interested in further writing than I would have been if they'd survived. That might change, of course -- it's only a few hours since I read it, after all, and the generally gloomy tone of the book may be rubbing off on me. I do at least have a femgenficathon entry to crank out (although that's multifandom, and the prompt I got is very flexible -- I could go for Martha in Last of the Time Lords, or something like Myste in Mordant's Need).

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

And Remus is very far from the noble paragon we've made him out to be (I now think that the nearest I got was probably Change For Me, despite that being what I thought of as a deliberately broken portrayal).

Can I tell you, from a R/S perspective, how HAPPY I am about that? NOT because he was a jerk to Tonks. Oh no. (And he still should have used a fricking condom if he felt that strongly about not having kids.) But because I HATE, DESPISE, LOATHE St. Remus that shows up so much in R/S fics. Sweet, innocent Remus who's always so hurt by mean, nasty Sirius. I've always maintained that Remus could be just as nasty back, and it's nice to be vindicated, even if I feel for Tonks. (Because I do. Unless this was a "planned accident" on Tonks's part where she lied to Remus about her birth control, she REALLY did not deserve the treatment he was giving her.)

I've always thought Remus was a bit of a, well, not jerk, but certainly had his downsides. You can write around it pretty easily, but he never really showed much sign of getting the truth about Sirius. (Although given how low his status was, he likely didn't have a choice.) He was passive in Snape's Worst Memory. He fled Hogwarts, without seeing if Dumbledore would protect him- I mean, he didn't even try. He never tried to contact Harry. Despite the fact he could show up at the Weasley's, he didn't find a way to write to Harry 6th year, even though Harry wanted him to. He gave Harry back the Marauder's Map, even though Peter was still out there and knew how to use it just as well as Sirius did. He's ready to kill several times. So, while I still really want to smack him upside the head, I enjoyed seeing him be a jerk- with the caveat that I enjoyed seeing him eventually come around.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, Saint!Remus can now go the way of Leatherpants!Draco and Heathcliff!Snape -- into the dustbin of discarded characterisations. A pity -- they were all enjoyable characterisations, just not the ones the author had in mind.

As for the pregnancy, I think I'd assume simply that it was meant to be the two characters getting carried away in their reunion and not thinking about contraception, magical or otherwise, until afterwards -- assuming JKR had a backstory plan for that.

(With the DADA position, based on Fake!Moody's 'only staying a year' comment I tend to take the view -- and I'm not sure many other people do -- that Remus never actually expected to last more than a year. My take is that after CoS Dumbledore was basically reduced to approaching old Order members and saying "we need someone to teach the kids defence, but that curse is probably real, don't plan on staying more than a year because you're at real risk if you do".)

[house-illrepute.livejournal.com]

and she practically made harry/draco canon.

between that and the OMG IS SHE MAKING H/Hr REAL moment, it was like she was tossing various fanficcers a bone.

that's kinda cool.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, she practically made Harry/Hermione canon, before killing it again. :)

I didn't see any H/D when originally reading without hindsight, but then I don't. (I did see hints of Dean/Luna.)

[maple-clef.livejournal.com]

Molly kicked Death Eater ass! And her battle cry was fantastic.

built up as far more important by the fans than JKR ever thought of them
Yeah, I think that this was the only, sneaky way in which fandom "spoiled" me for the books. The reluctance to give my favourite characters back to their author!

And now there is so much juicy potential for fic. Ministry corruption! Alternative viewpoints! Pottterwatch! Goblin histories! Backstory to be expanded on! Rich pickings, once everthing calms down.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes -- I've noticed that sort of thing with fandom as well. It wasn't so bad when there was still a book or two to go. Interesting to wonder whether the enjoyment you get from fandom is more than the possible 'spoiling' for the canon -- on balance it probably comes out ahead, but it's not entirely cost-free.

But yes, there's much there for fans to have a go at.

[finmagik.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Snape died in a noble way.

[snorkackcatcher]

Fairly noble -- it's a brutal random killing from Voldy's POV, but Snape manages to pass on the message to Harry.

[snorkackcatcher]

The Peverells, Harry and Voldemort -- very good point that.

Yes, the Harry-Lupin confrontation was one of several points in the book where I was cheering 'Go, Harry!'. Of course, there were also several points where I was groaning 'Harry, you prat!' but on the whole he really grew up a lot here.

[shiiki.livejournal.com]

I suspect many people will cheer the former especially.

I truly hope not! That was the most touching death in the scene - IMO the most touching death in the series, unless you count Lily Potter's. Especially knowing how Dobby would have been glad to do it again, given the chance.

And now, OT - I don't think NTLJ has really been canon-shafted at all!

[snorkackcatcher]

I did like Harry's reaction to it, and Ron and Dean's. Very moving.

NTLJ might not have been canon-shafted, but obviously I feel a lot less enthusiastic about it now. :) It's like the story would be cut off in its prime if continued, just like the central character. I should remind myself that Tonks only got the part of central character because she happened to be the most suitable fit for the kind of story I wanted to tell, and before that I just regarded her as an interesting minor character.

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

Some very interesting points here - particularly the ones about the NORMAL readers of the books, who the fandom do tend to overlook.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yeah, the dark matter of fandom. And really, when you read JKR's interviews, she clearly has no idea about some of the corners of fandom we're all so familiar with, and therefore isn't taking them into account the way they expect her to.

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

The former was kind of confirmed with the news that he'd been lenient with the students who tried to steal the Sword, and the fact that it had been switched for a fake and then left for Harry to find; but it was the appearance of the doe Patronus when they did that was the real 'Ker-ching!' moment that made everything clear.

Yup. The whole "Snape is Headmaster and vile and horrid, er except he isn't, and who had the sword secretly for three days anyway?" business was not exaclty hard. Adn then I remember that this is a book that 10 year olds are supposed to be able to get something out of, so fair enough.

[snorkackcatcher]

Well, a lot of people didn't get it, I think. :) I suppose that keeping Snape mostly out of it was intended to make it as unclear as possible.

[annuscka.livejournal.com]

This was really excellent, wasn't it? Ah. I've got over the worst 'hold on, WHO died?' phase so I can actually appreciate a very good book.
I think it's clear that the first two of these were built up as far more important by the fans than JKR ever thought of them as
Probably, yeah - I was still thinking almost the opposite for a while, while Remus was shoving Harry into kitchen furniture and having breakdowns; I hadn't expected (well, dared to hope) he'd be in it so much. Died out towards the middle-end, though. Didn't realise what I wrote there before I wrote it, no, so a very bad pun stands.
It was great to see the Tonkses as well; I think I really liked them.

Poor Teddy, though. *bawl*

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, I've been re-reading some of the key chapters in the light of all the flak the book has been getting, and hey -- I still reckon it's good.

[annuscka.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think so - I've been pleased not to find as much of an anti-JKR explosion as after HBP, though. But I'm probably not looking in the right places, I'm sure it's there...

[snorkackcatcher]

Oh, it's there all right. :)

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

I'm sure it's there...

Oh my yes. *g*

To my surprise, it's the Snape fans that seem to be the most down about it - maybe that's just lack of screen time.

Mind you the anti-Tonks stuff I am coming across is breathtaking.

[snorkackcatcher]

Despite the fact that I've written about them quite a lot, I found Remus and Tonks disappointing in this -- though probably most of it's a reaction to them being killed off and not having any opportunities for later undisappointingness. I wish she'd stuck to her original plan and bumped off Arthur, really. :)

[(Anonymous)]

I was thrilled about Snape - not surprised exactly, but you never know... The pensieve was a good way of letting Harry know the backstory without resorting to a schmaltzy (and out of character) scene with Snape himself. Even as a Snape fan, I thought death was probably the best outcome for Snape - I can't imagine him having lived happily ever after. Of course, I was thrilled about the platonic Snape/Lily, since this is the mainstay of most of my fics and I've taken serious flak for it from fans who assure me I must be insane to think Snape and Lily could ever have been friends... OK, I'm maybe a teeny bit smug about that one!

Good background politics with the early takeover of the Ministry and some truly nasty (Nazi?) stuff going on

I thought there were parallels with the Nazis there too - very much so. I read the book on the plane back from Eastern Europe where there's still a lot of evidence of the atrocities commited against the Jews, so maybe it resonated more with me for that. I wouldn't be surprised if the most relevant chapters eventually get used by teachers to illustrate the horrors of Nazism.

I liked Kreacher coming round -- a nice thing
I did too - it was a nice unexpected touch and gave a bit of positivity in an otherwise pretty dark story.

Not sure about the shades of the Marauders and Lily appearing, or Dumbledore chatting to Harry in the King's Cross Celestial Waiting Room

Yes, shame about the celestial waiting room. And honestly, was it really necessary to ask Harry which option he preferred out of 'die' or 'return to life and save the wizarding world'? I also found the epilogue cloying, but I suspect it's fanfic that made me react like that as much as anything.

I was quite pleased with the Dumbledore aspects of the storyline - echoing what fans have long been raising concerns about, that the guy isn't as good and wholesome as it appears. I found him a much better, more realistic and even more likable character as a result.

Anyway, it was a good read, has almost inspired me to write some more fics (under a new user name). It was good to read your thoughts about the book and to see you're still around in the fandom. I see you've written lots of fics since I've been away, so I can look forward to reading through them!

Your former fandom friend, Hannah

[snorkackcatcher]

Hi Hannah -- I was wondering the other day if you were still interested in matters HP, so it's great to hear from you!

I liked the book too, and even more so after a re-read which enabled me to catch some of the stuff I missed first time around when I was reading quickly to find out how the hell they managed to get out of Malfoy Manor or Gringotts. I quite understand about you being smug on the Snape stuff, so was I really (it was about the only major thing I did guess correctly, I think)

I was quite pleased with the Dumbledore aspects of the storyline - echoing what fans have long been raising concerns about, that the guy isn't as good and wholesome as it appears. I found him a much better, more realistic and even more likable character as a result.

I thought it rounded him out nicely -- manipulative, yes, but out of necessity more than for personal gain. The flaws kind of threw the good bits into sharp relief, as with Harry.

Anyway, sorry I didn't get back to you before (my net connection is lousy ar the moment), good to see you around again. Drop in any time, OK? :)

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for replying. I still like HP, I just have less time to spend online now, plus my boss Googled me and got all my fics... yes, I was naive enough to use my real name... which was mega embarrassing and I had to remove everything as quick as possible. I might set up again under a new username now a bit of time has passed - I'll let you know if I do.

Take care, hope all is well in the real world.