Deletegate wafflage

[snorkackcatcher]

The Deletegate row makes me feel quite nostalgic for my days in student politics. Self-important, self-obsessed arguments of grand principle displaying entitlement complexes but little common sense are great, aren't they?

Yes, it sucks enormously that SixApart banned a bunch of journals with dubious-sounding interests, regardless of whether they were actually promoting said activities or not. Yes, it would be nice if they hadn't lost their nerve when faced with complaints from a site that appears to be one lone and clueless obsessive at best, an Astroturf operation at worst. Yes, anything that can be done to create a backlash is worthwhile, although it would be wise not to overestimate the importance of the fanfic writing community to the firm's business plans when formulating responses (for earlier examples of this, see the whole Fanlib debate).

But no, I can't really condemn them out of hand. They're looking down the barrel of some serious legal liability under American law, and if they blinked -- well, can you blame them? It's not just an academic free speech issue for them. Do you feel entirely comfortable asking them to take one for the team and be a test case?

And on the merits -- well, putting 'incest' or (in particular) 'paedophilia' in the interests of an LJ or comm isn't merely Asking For Trouble, it's jumping up and down in front of Trouble waving a placard saying 'Trouble Sucks!!!' and chanting 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough'. Yes, we know (the 'we' being 'those reasonably immersed in fannish culture') that it's just fen goofing off and doing silly things with characters, and generally extend a certain amount of tolerance because of that, even for the stuff that any reasonable person would be entitled to find disgusting. But come on -- if you wouldn't want your RL friends and relatives to see it for reasons stronger than outing your inner nerd, you can't expect anyone else to come in from outside and understand. It's probably useful to get a reality check on this sort of thing from time to time.

I've seen people saying that they feel as if they've lost a safe space. No, you haven't. There are no safe spaces on the Internet, beyond the short term. If GreatestJournal or JournalFen or whichever site is suggested as an alternative come under the same sort of legal pressure, do you want to bet they wouldn't fold in the same way? It doesn't matter if you don't live in America. On the Internet, everybody lives in America, particularly if they use an American-hosted site like LJ.

That being said, I agree that the 'principle' (or paranoia) SixApart are making their stand on is open to challenge or at least the offering of alternatives, and that it's a nasty blow in particular that pornish_pixies has gone (even if my personal impression was that it was mostly drivel -- but legitimate drivel). In fact, this might be a good test case to push back on as strongly as possible (this post has good suggestions as to how), because if it can be established that this is acceptable on LJ, most things fannish would be.

Sorry, getting exasperated with some of this and in a bad mood late at night, trying not to go over the top. You can defriend now.

Comments

[msmoocow.livejournal.com]

And on the merits -- well, putting 'incest' or (in particular) 'paedophilia' in the interests of an LJ or comm isn't merely Asking For Trouble, it's jumping up and down in front of Trouble waving a placard saying 'Trouble Sucks!!!' and chanting 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough'.

Thank you for the most amusing thing I've seen all day. :D

The thing I'm most saddened about is the inevitable loss of some of the wonderful friends I've made. LJ was a fandom mecca, and the only reason I started mine was to get to know authors of fic I so admired. ::coughs in your direction::

And I'm using my most pedo-able icon, just 'cause.

[snorkackcatcher]

LJ was fun, wasn't it? It may well blow over -- it seems to have been a fairly random selection of journals (presumably the ones WfI found -- they themselves now seem on further info to be some right-wing wackos), and the volume of protest has been surprising (there was even a sympathetic article on Cnet).

[masterofmystery.livejournal.com]

I think I'm most startled at how many people went and started making GJ accounts in the last two days. I mean, just get rid of the interests, lock up your journal, and that's that, you shouldn't worry then. This has really been blown out of proportion, and I've just been watching my friends-list freak out over it (though, I myself had to lock up a few dubious fanfics, I must admit), but otherwise no one should worry too much if they take the right precautions.

Everyone's going to argue that it's censorship, aren't they? I agree with that, but I suppose that Warriors site just didn't really think and just threw a massive blanket on one thing, which was kind of stupid. They should have done a bit of research to see if whatever comm was really that bad rather than going, 'ooh, I see a word or phrase I don't like, let me rid it from the world!' That was a bit extreme there, but otherwise, just lock up your journals or whatever and that should be that.

[snorkackcatcher]

'Censorship' is probably a bit strong, although it does have an uncomfortable feeling (and the more I see about WfI, the more it seems that I was being too kind to them above). I haven't really written anything worth locking up, although I did create a GJ account just in case I need one if people move en masse.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Dude, if I wasn't very happily married I would so be asking for your number right now. THANK YOU.

I just can't manage to get myself worked into a righteous lather over this, because a.) it's not a government institution doing the censoring, and b.) I admit it- I have nothing invested in incest or chan, which seem to be the two big ones they're cracking down on. I think they're being stupid in how they're going about it, but at the same time, I still can't get too worked up about it.

::sigh:: Oh well. Thank you for a nice, sane post. It made me smile :)

[snorkackcatcher]

Heh. junediamanti made the same sorts of points. I'm not comfortable with the incest and chan fics and would prefer them not to be so enthusiastically linked to on the daily comms, but I'm not happy about actually banning them either (because of knock-on effects) and would like to see the protests work. But it's a good wake-up call regardless.

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Yeah, basically :) I don't like them myself, but for some reason I know a lot of people who do read/write them. (There's a high percentage of Black brother lovers and Supernatural people on my f-list.) I'm pretty sure most of these people aren't sexual offenders. It does bother me in that respect that they're being cracked down on, because most people I know have fantasies that they'd never, ever think were a good idea in real life. I mean, heck- I read slash. 'Nuff said.

It just seemed stupid that they were going after the interests. the first thing I thought when I heard that was "what if someone's a survivor and has the word listed in their interests?"

Preaching to the choir, but I felt like being wordy this morning :)

[snorkackcatcher]

I've never quite got the Blackcest and Wincest thing. It comes under the heading of what I call 'lazyshipping' -- launching into a pairing because it's edgy, not because it makes any kind of sense. (Well, the various types of Blackcest, anyway -- Wincest may be more plausible, but I wouldn't know because it's a show I've never seen.)

[gloryforever.livejournal.com]

I think they're being stupid in how they're going about it, but at the same time, I still can't get too worked up about it.

Dead on.

[gloryforever.livejournal.com]

WORD on everything you said. That's exactly what I think about the whole mess.

[snorkackcatcher]

Cheers. :)

[magnolia-mama.livejournal.com]

No defriending from this quarter. Yours is about the most sensible commentary I've come across so far, and echoes my own feelings nearly thought for thought.

[sugarannie.livejournal.com]

I second that.

[snorkackcatcher]

*phew*

[jesspallas.livejournal.com]

I third it. This strikes me as a bit of stampede situation - a couple of affected people twitched and suddenly the masses bolt. It's been blown out of all proportion from what I can tell from my flist, which is mostly third or fourth hand accounts anyway because no one I know seems directly involved. And why on earth would anyone want to put incest or paedophilia as an interest anyway? You might as well just ask to be thought of as a pervert! There is one piece of dodgy logic though - if someone was an incest promoting paedophile, you wouldn't advertise it on your interests page unless you were really, really, really, really stupid anyway....

[snorkackcatcher]

And why on earth would anyone want to put incest or paedophilia as an interest anyway?

Teenage posturing? (I know many of the people involved are probably in their thirties, but the psychology's ptobably the same.)

The worst thing about the WfI clows is that it appears they've tipped off people who were actually into those things and even the really, really, really, really stupid ones have bolted for cover ...

[snorkackcatcher]

Ah thanks. It was a bit of a late night rant, and they tend to be iffy. :)

Complete & utter WORD!

[koloagirl.livejournal.com]

You nailed that in one! When it comes right down to it, LJ is a business and SixApart is going to do what it feels needs to be done to preserve it. In certain respects LJ is far less secure than keeping your cash under the mattress.

Re: Complete & utter WORD!

[snorkackcatcher]

Yeah -- it's a known phenomenon that people react to the pseudonymity of the internet by posting stuff they wouldn't normally, after all. But it's still unwise to assume people who don't share your views won't look at it.

[8daze.livejournal.com]

I'm actually glad to see some others who are sort of mid-line on this. (Personally, I don't like incest and chan, and won't read them or rec them.) In every way, I believe LJ has the right to delete whatever they want for any reason they want. Plus, I think it's also about darn time a few of those journals were deleted; they were repugnant and blatantly illegal. And I do recognize that the only reason so many people get to complain is because LJ is letting them.

That said, as long as we are allowed to complain, I think people should say something about the people who were unfairly banned (of which there were clearly more than a couple). It's a symbiotic relationship after all -- we need LJ to, um, post on LJ, but they need users to survive.

I guess what I'm basically saying is thanks for thinking this through rather than being knee-jerk. :)

[snorkackcatcher]

Cheers. In fact LJ seem to have looked at this again and posted a commendably prompt response. So most of the non-RL journals should be back within a day or two.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

I think Six Apart did a very strange thing in going after user interests, for reasons that have been discussed endlessly elsewhere, but I'm gobsmacked by the depth of the reaction that I'm seeing.

One of the things that fanfic groups don't like to talk about is the dividing line between vanilla/your kink is ok and the stuff that is heavily focused on specific, I don't know, very specific fantasies. If the world doesn't really understand the Harry/Hermione late-adolescent porn, and is surprised by the Harry-Draco postwar love stories, then it really isn't going to look kindly on Harry-Snape let alone the vatloads of heavily pornariffic stuff that is around in that universe alone. I am creeped beyond belief by some of it, and I want to say 'that's something that I personally want no part of' but that's seen as not quite playing the game. Some of the discussions I saw at the fan convention that I went to made me question what I think I'm doing here, because there are people and communities who make me deeply uncomfortable about fanfic as a laudable endeavour.

I wa startled by pornish_pixies being deleted because it's weirdly mainstream. That, I think was their big misjudgement: it's got a big and very articulate readership.

Anyway, yeah. Defriend at will.

[snorkackcatcher]

Mmm. That's the thing, I think; it seems to have been a bit of a game to write the kinkiest stuff possible on an 'I'm edgier than you, nyah!' principle. It may be no worse than kids competing to say the rudest words, but it's one of those situations where you don't notice how far out on a limb you've gone until a storm gets up and the branch starts swaying.

That's not to say there aren't stories that treat the subjects seriously, of course, because obviously there are, but as you say, some of it is genuinely squicky.

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

Well, an example of how out on a limb it's all getting is that I have been transfixed by the wankage and at the same time utterly unable to explain any of it to RL friends. 'and so lots of people are protesting at the removal of journals that may encourage incest and paedophilia...' Sympathetic much? I don't think so.

HP fiction is one of the strangest that way; and not all of the adolescents are under 20, either.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah. It's hilarious seeing them say, "I hope this gets in the news!" because, seriously, are you insane? Do you honestly think you'd get any sympathy at all from the outside world?

[snorkackcatcher]

No. :)

[snorkackcatcher]

Sadly not. (Then again, I don't exactly act my age either -- I'm in HP fandom, after all.) It doesn't make a lot of sense unless you happen to have internalised fandom mores, at least to the extent of understanding them.

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

All fascinating to watch, and lots of free speech, difference between discussion/promotion/commission/fiction/art stuff issues going on, I'm sure, but re. the interest lists, part of me is inclined to think that if people choose to pour steaming yellow liquid into a swimming pool, they can't complain about being sent back to the changing rooms without chemical analysis being done first to discover that it's merely food colouring. Now it seems analysis is being done, and LJ could have handled it better, but misinterpretation is not _always_ wilful, however mis- it may turn out to be (and however much WFI are a deeply scary bunch).

[snorkackcatcher]

misinterpretation is not _always_ wilful, however mis- it may turn out to be

Exactly. It's a bit of a red-rag-to-a-bull situation, and if you deliberately try to be outrageous, it's pointless being surprised if someone is, in fact, outraged. Even if, gosh, it's not meant to be taken seriously.

Free speech would be a lot easier to defend if there wasn't so much silliness amid both attack and defence tactics.

[(Anonymous)]

Nice analogy! Much better than the comparing LJ to Nazis stuff I've seen.

[snorkackcatcher]

Well, I don't think Godwin's Law automatically applies ... but this would be one case where it does.

[themolesmother.livejournal.com]

A very sensible and balanced posting - only makes me even more glad to be your LJ friend. I've mentioned it in my own journal - hope you don't mind.

I've seen people saying that they feel as if they've lost a safe space. No, you haven't. There are no safe spaces on the Internet, beyond the short term. If GreatestJournal or JournalFen or whichever site is suggested as an alternative come under the same sort of legal pressure, do you want to bet they wouldn't fold in the same way? It doesn't matter if you don't live in America. On the Internet, everybody lives in America, particularly if they use an American-hosted site like LJ.

I think you've put your finger on the crux of the matter here.

MM

[snorkackcatcher]

Don't mind at all, no. I'm glad my flist seems to be taking a practical view of all this! It reminds me a bit of when I did computer science at uni in the late 90s, and there was all sorts of starry-eyed commentary about how Internet anonymity created a totally government-free space, and even then I thought, 'hang on, no, this is easily subject to RL attack'.

[pasi.livejournal.com]

I'm overwhelmingly a vanilla-rated gen-fic writer. I can't bring myself to read or write anything that's NC-17, and most R-rated stuff scares me off.

The very thought of incest, chan, paedophilia, whatever squicks me to the limit. I have never read the first line of any fanfic that lists those topics in its warnings. (Though, if you want, see my earlier post about scholarly work.)

That said, I also hate the thought of frightening any author or artist away from using any and every tool that comes to hand, because there will always be at least one good author or artist who knows how to use that tool well.

[snorkackcatcher]

I'll read R and NC-17 if the summary looks potentially interesting, although it's often mundane and not especially sexy. I've written one of each, although like you I don't go for incest or chan as it's squicky. It's one of those cases where people are correct to defend the right to write this stuff on general principle, but you wish they'd be a bit more realistic about what the reaction is likely to be.

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

This seems an appropriate time to ask what exactly chan is. I've never quite been able to work out more than "probably illegal and unpleasant". Could you provide enlightenment?

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

I've never been exactly sure of the definition, and i've always been too nerovus to look, but my understanding is that it's explicit fanfic about underage/just about pubescent characters. I think it comes from Japanese anime (maybe?) and I am never sure how underage is underage. The period fanwars that break out about writing technically underage sex get hugely complicated by the differences in age of consent between countries; I feel there's probably a difference between writing about teenage sexuality/experimentation (the sort of thing that would be in a young adult novel) and what chan is, but I'm not sure what that would be.

TMI, probably. Sorry.


In the Harry Potter world, there's probably a lot of Harry/Snape fanfic which floats close to this (disclaimer: I loathe this particular pairing), and I'm sure some of that plus the Sirius/Harry and other HP incest could indeed worry the powers that be.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, that's the impression I got as well (although I did risk trying to find a fandom glossary that gave a definition -- you seem to be right about the anime origins). Presumably my Ron/Hermione NC-17 story would count as such in the USA because Ron isn't quite eighteen yet, but anyone who wants to get snotty about that is going to get a very trenchant reply.

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

Thanks - it's a word I've come across, but never quite in enough context to be sure of the meaning (I've never been much of a shipper). From this and snorkackcatcher's reply, it seems to boil down to "explicit ship fic where you feel it's getting a bit dodgy". I shall not feel I'm missing out by avoiding. The not YA book element (even where the book is buy Melvyn Burgess) seems to make sense.

My only response to Harry/Snape is a befuddled cry of "but why?"

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

My only response to Harry/Snape is a befuddled cry of "but why?"

Well.

There's a Law of Slash which means 'first slash the mortal enemies' but while I do fairly cheerfully absorb the Harry/Draco, the Snarry (sorry) is beyond me.

There should be a Harry-Potter-centric version of the Geek Hierarchy..

[snorkackcatcher]

I dread to think where HP fans would appear on that chart.

Oddly enough, Harry/Snape doesn't irritate me as much as some other ships -- probably because it is so out there it's one of those pairings you just have to shrug at if you read the story, and I've just got inured to it by seeing so much of it about.

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I can cope with the anyone/random or implausible/sibling pairings more, I think, in that they're so totally ridiculous, that presumably half the fun is the challenge of making them work, yet the bogglement of Snarry never leaves me. I think it's that though my brain can imagine a great deal, it will not accept the thought of Harry and Snape voluntarily spending a millisecond in one another's company. Except that I've just imagined a fic in which Harry uses polyjuice to turn into Lily and then seduces/is seduced by Snape. Oh dear. Someone's probably written it as well.

*is not going to look and destroy brain*

[snorkackcatcher]

brain: *is destroyed pretty much by the mere concept*

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

The lowest category being "Harry/Hermione shippers who think it's canonical and dress up in furry costumes of their respective animagus forms and get married".

The geek hierarchy did once inspire me to twincestuous rabbit slash in space. Yes, well.

[snorkackcatcher]

What parthenia14 said, I think. Frequent mentions of Snarry stories have dulled that reaction in me, but then I no longer bat an eyelid at Sirius/Regulus for the same reason, and when kennahijja asked what people thought the four commonest femmeslash pairings were I included Bellatrix/Narcissa, having got the impression that there was a lot of it about. I don't suppose I'm missing that much by not actually reading them.

[snorkackcatcher]

As far as I can gather from context, in general it basically means "shipfic in which at least one character is under the legal age of consent", although it seems to most often be used to refer to adult/child or adult/youngish teen rather than fics about two teenagers. parthenia14's take on things below seems pretty much spot on to me.

I did Google around to see if I could find a definition (probably not a good idea, remind me to clear my browser cache now) -- this fan glossary site was the best I could do. The original term does indeed seem to have come from anime according to that.

[annuscka.livejournal.com]

Very well-put; I've been trying to come to a similar conclusion for two days now. (Been pending between semi-righteous anger and cynicism personally). I don't like this because of how shabbily it has been done, and while I don't think the pornish pixies and folks are relly hurting anyone and IMO should be allowed to be reinstated (have high hopes for that, since the news post) - I do understand why this happened. I think. I'm personally deeply squicked by pretty much everything that has been in the line of fire here and would really not be grieving if it stayed away - but on the other hand, I haven't read it before either, and I can keep avoiding it. Not that hard, after all. To me personally, it's - well, not OK, but live and let live. But when people make vile accusations at LJ/6A I'm not really following anymore; yes, it was done really trigger-happily and badly, but the news post was very reasonable. I've used the term 'censorship' about this but on the other hand, a lot of this was in breach of the ToU and general "morals", so they had every right to pull the plug. It just was, whether it's approved in fandom or not. Something.

OK, I'm rambling in your journal and am not even on your flist (came here through sparkly_stuff. Sorry 'bout that!

[snorkackcatcher]

Hey, feel free. Like you say, I don't actually think much of this stuff, but it's legal, and does need to be defended on that basis (as much to draw a line in the sand as anything). The response from LJ/6A has been surprisingly swift and fair; pornish_pixies is back up now.

[annuscka.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that has pretty much been my ideal in this mess too; don't read it, don't want to read it, but just keep it for those who do.

The response from LJ/6A has been surprisingly swift and fair; pornish_pixies is back up now.
I was really happy with how they've recated and handled things; exceeded my expectations for sure. Even made a first visit to the pornish pixies to "celebrate", and well, hogwarts_today was as full of R/NC-17 today as usually, so I think the world still stands...