Quick question on Wizarding penology

[snorkackcatcher]

(That's the study of prisons, you pervs. :D)

Anyway, what I wanted to ask were the following questions: is it reasonable that 'ordinary' prisoners (i.e. not Death Eaters and similar serious criminals) would be held in cells at the Ministry for extended periods (say a week or two) while awaiting interrogation or trial? Or do the poor bleeders just automatically get sent to Azkaban to sweat it out? And what 'levels' of cell might there be there in terms of Dementor activity?

The only times I can think of people definitely being held in Azkaban before sentencing in 'modern times' are for Dark Arts crimes (DEs in the GoF Pensieve scenes, Hagrid when they think he's opened the Chamber again) -- although Ludo Bagman didn't seem to have been held there. It's not clear whether Morfin and Marvolo were while awaiting trial for the fight with Bob Ogden, although Morfin seems to have gone directly to Azkaban without passing Go when he confessed to murdering the Riddles -- but then that crime involved an Unforgivable Curse anyway. But Azkaban seems harsh for the Willy Widdershins types with their exploding toilets and biting doorknobs.

Can anyone think of things from the HP books that touches on this question?

(I'll try and get back to people tonight, but will be away most of Wednesday and Thursday -- so if I don't get back to you quickly my apologies. Try not to break the interwebs while I'm gone, and if you do, make sure you put them back the way they were or THERE WILL BE WORDS. :D)

Comments

[lazy-neutrino.livejournal.com]

I'd have thought it might depend on the attitude of the current Minister. If they don't mind visiting Azkaban, Azkaban it is (same with the Head of MLE or whatever). But if they can't stand it, there might be a tendency to do the interrogation at Auror HQ before sending off. We know that the procedure varies: some prisoners don't get trials, for example. Repeat offenders like Hagrid probably get carted there straight away on principle. So either approach would be fine in a story.

As for levels of cell, I'm not sure it was that organised? I always saw it as a modern day oubliette - lock 'em up and forget about 'em. There appears to be some reining in of Dementors, as prisoners are fit to see family/Aurors on visits, but that's about it would be my guess.

[snorkackcatcher]

Very possible -- it just seems odd if the grades of punishment are nothing, fine, jail time amid soul-sucking fiends. I don't think non-inspection visits are normal (even Crouch seemed to have to pull strings).

[nineveh-uk.livejournal.com]

it just seems odd if the grades of punishment are nothing, fine, jail time amid soul-sucking fiends

Odd for a society concerned about having a humane justice system. Since the WW doesn't seem to be such a society, then it seems to me that nothing/fine/fiends is what they get. In any case, anyone with influence to change things would probably be of sufficient connections to get off with a fine, and thus has no interest in any change.

[snorkackcatcher]

Mm, I know, it's odd. I suppose the argument is that wizards have powers that might help them escape without Dementors there or something (although that doesn't seem to have happened during HBP). It would be interesting to know JKR's background information (if any) on this.

[muggle-prof.livejournal.com]

Sturgis Podmore is sentenced to Azkaban for 6 months for trespassing and attempted robbery of the MOM in OOTP. (It's a one-paragraph story in the Daily Prophet in chapter 14). That doesn't really answer your questions, but it does seem to show Azkaban holds people convicted for fairly minor offenses.
Unless there are totally separate dementor-patrolled and wizard-patrolled areas, I'm not sure how there can be cells for/with different levels of dementor activity. If there were wizards to guard the less hardened criminals, wouldn't they be subject to the same dementor effects as everyone else if they are in the same area?
But then again, I've never understood how the Ministry was supposed to be able to control the dementors guarding Azkaban in the first place.

[snorkackcatcher]

I did consider Sturgis, but thought he might have been dealt with severely as an example, either because he was known or suspected to be a member of the Order, or because the door he was trying to get through was that of the DoM and thus high-security? Fudge mentioned something about Sirius being especially well-guarded with Dementors outside his cell day and night, so I was wondering if maybe there are cells in which the Dementors just pass by on patrol every now and again?

[muggle-prof.livejournal.com]

I lean toward the "caught in a high-security area" idea.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, I suppose that fits with Dumbledore having to think of an excuse for Arthur being there -- at least he was a Ministry official and thus might conceivably have had some reason to be there in the middle of the night with an invisibility cloak. Come to think of it, I always did wonder what that excuse was!

[dolorous-ett.livejournal.com]

I'm looking forward to seeing what you turn up on this issue - one of the few areas where JKR's world really seems quite cruel and not that moral.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, I know ... you can sort of see the point for powerful types like Bellatrix (although they seem to be getting on just fine without the Dementors in HBP), but it's always seemed rather drastic for lesser criminals.

[masterofmystery.livejournal.com]

Well, back when Crouch was in charge Sirius did state that he was tossed into prison without a trial, but we did see other Death Eaters and alleged ones get trials, although their crimes were fairly severe, I reckon they're put in holding cells like the Lestranges were before their trial, despite how bad it was, no? I mean, I'm thinking of Stan and Dung in HBP and neither one of them got trials, they were just tossed in without question, weren't they?

It's more of a question of how this situation is handled when the wizarding world isn't in the middle of the war, and unfortunately the only times we really got to see anyone being put into prison was during one of the wars, where things like being processed for a fair trial wasn't an important thing. I reckon for a case like Willy's there should have been some sort of case had he not made a deal with the Ministry, but during a war things like that either don't matter and they wouldn't even bother with a trial or they'd just toss everyone in prison.

[snorkackcatcher]

That's true. The fact that the Lestranges and Crouch Jnr were escorted in by Dementors gave me the impression that they'd been brought from Azkaban, but I suppose they could have been held in the Ministry for a while with the Dementors called in on the day ... and I've just looked it up and realised I'm talking rubbish, Crouch Jnr says to his father "don't throw me back to the Dementors". :D

[shiiki.livejournal.com]

It's interesting to note that Hagrid was afraid to let Buckbeak free in PoA, because he didn't ever want to go to Azkaban again. Of course, he may not be an expert source on whether all crimes get Azkaban, but it seemed to me that letting a Hippogriff go doesn't seem like a very big misdemeanour. Not Dark-activity related, certainly.

In CoS, Hagrid's sojourn in Azkaban seemed to be a very precautionary matter - he was never convicted of the actual crime (I don't think there was a trial, was there?) so it does seem as though it was a case of 'holding in Azkaban, awaiting trial'. Of course, we have no idea what went on behind the scenes.

[snorkackcatcher]

Those are good points -- Hagrid's case appears to have been Fudge making up the law as he went along (which now I come to think of it, does provide a pointer to his behaviour in OotP).

[a-t-rain.livejournal.com]

Well, I certainly hope there's nothing wrong with the idea, because I'm planning to give the Hogsmeade Auror office a holding cell in Remorse. I'd say go for it.

[snorkackcatcher]

Thanks. (And yes, I have been reading Remorse, just haven't posted a comment for a while. Will have to do so asap!)