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Regarding the latest Your Kink Is Not Okay! post on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
metafandom (by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
redsambuca) and the inevitable YES IT IS THEN! response (by hector_rashbaum): is it just me, or is the general tone of the latter awfully reminiscent of Steve Vander Ark's blithering about how he should be able to have the right to publish whatever he wants without anyone harshing his squee with legalities or questions of ethics or common sense?
Yes, in both cases the party complaining about the complainers (if you see what I mean) can construct a case that it's perfectly all right to do this, on the grounds of free speech, personal expression, apple pie and so on, and are claiming to be fighting on behalf of fandom in defence of one of its core principles. And in both cases I find myself headdesking and wanting to say: stop making us look like nutters then. You may well be right, you may not, but whiny entitlement and a complete refusal to notice that people with countervailing views have a point is not impressive, and not likely to convince either.
The gist of this for anyone not followingmetafandom is the running sore of whether fics depicting things generally considered really squicky and offensive, in a manner that's basically just pr0ny wankfodder, should be condemned, tolerated, or celebrated. As I understand it, the fic the original poster was offended by was a piece of MCR RPS in which one of the Way brothers is regularly leading the other into the woods with the promise of ice-cream, and then proceeding to abuse him, without any in-story comeback. (No, I'm not bloody stupid enough to go check and put the URL on the records of my ISP.) Both posts linked above get their fury on; the money quotes would seem to be redsambuca's "We CANNOT maintain to livejournal and to the public at large that fandom as a whole is AGAINST child abuse if we let fics like this slide" and hector_rashbaum's "I don't ever, ever consider it okay to tell someone their fantasies are Unacceptable".
Leaving aside the ethics and legalities of RPF (I understand that the most common view is that it's really about constructed public profiles, not the real people, though if a subject of same ever did sue for libel I suspect you'd need a Cochran-quality lawyer to make that view stick in court) -- to be honest, I have a lot more sympathy with the first view than the second. Especially when it's presented as something I'm supposed to defend vigorously in order to be a Member of Fandom in Good Standing.
Hmm. Let's consider an analogy here. As a Brit, I might not think lager-fuelled wankers getting boisterous in foreign climes deserve to be thrown into hellhole jails for long periods, and would argue against same if I ever had to in a RL situation -- but I really, really wish they wouldn't do it, their thoughtlessness make my entire country look bad. Their kink is understandable but you'd need to squint to consider it okay. To take another quote from Ms Rashbaum: "I'll say this now: I get off on this kind of fic". Come on now, folks: in all honesty, that's the kind of statement that would take some serious deconstruction to not find really, really creepy. I can see how you could parse it so it wasn't, but don't expect most people in fandom to have any great enthusiasm for doing so, and absolutely don't expect most people not in fandom to even try.
Yes, there are perfectly good reasons why someone might write such fics -- e.g. exploration of deviant psychologies, or as a way of working through real-life abuse. The flipside is that there are also crappy reasons for writing them -- e g. a desire to be edgier-than-thou, or for pure zero-depth PWPish titillation. On which topic, Ms Rashbaum disagrees (yes, I did check it was a woman writing -- I think we'd all have far less of a not-a-pervert-really presumption if it was a man):
"Aside from the problem I have with the idea that titillation in and of itself isn't a valid reason to share fantasies of dubious moral fiber, one wonders whoredsambuca would have judge the merits of child molestation fic to determine whether they were "valid" - that's a highly subjective set of criteria. I interpreted that fic very differently than redsambuca, as did a number of commenters - who's right? And who gets to say which one of us has a more valid interpretation, or that an unfavorable interpretation overrules the creator's right to share?"
I'm glad you asked that question. The answer: that's what communities do. They give you a distribution of opinion. Are exploring your sexual kinks and getting off good things? Yes -- some of the time. They're just not the sole relevant consideration. Sometimes, doing so goes beyond the pale, despite the fact that it's fantasy -- especially when kids are the subject. True, like many things in life, the merits of the issue can't be decided except on a case-by-case basis -- which is why I can't really see why fics of this kind should be any more immune from fannish outrage, excoriation, and general shunning by people who find them offensive than fics/posts found to be racist, anti-Semitic, heterosexist or whatever. In both cases, it's not banning. It's not censorship. It's an expression of community opinion. The fic/post isn't going to be forcibly removed unless the OP throws a Goodbye Cruel Fandom strop, but they now have a reality check. Maybe the community is wrong -- but maybe they're not and it really isn't okay this time.
So, I suppose after that I should specify some actual suggestions for people writing questionable fic (should anybody care). Er, basically just use common sense and don't get lost in fandom, that's all. If you're writing something questionable, at least have the awareness to know it's questionable. Lots of people are not going to want to see it or find it okay, especially so if the slant is clearly all about getting off on it. Keep it among consenting adults unless you're really, specifically trying to piss people off (and if you do, be prepared for the backlash). Plaster it with the appropriate warnings. Keep it for comms with mostly like-minded people, or at least those sufficiently inured to just roll their eyes and pass on. Don't get all precious about it and cry ZOMGOPRESHUN. Use common sense.
Eh, it's an old familiar subject, and the above ramble isn't meant to be the, or even my, last word. But it's the best edited knee-jerk reaction can provide.
metafandom (by redsambuca) and the inevitable YES IT IS THEN! response (by hector_rashbaum): is it just me, or is the general tone of the latter awfully reminiscent of Steve Vander Ark's blithering about how he should be able to have the right to publish whatever he wants without anyone harshing his squee with legalities or questions of ethics or common sense?Yes, in both cases the party complaining about the complainers (if you see what I mean) can construct a case that it's perfectly all right to do this, on the grounds of free speech, personal expression, apple pie and so on, and are claiming to be fighting on behalf of fandom in defence of one of its core principles. And in both cases I find myself headdesking and wanting to say: stop making us look like nutters then. You may well be right, you may not, but whiny entitlement and a complete refusal to notice that people with countervailing views have a point is not impressive, and not likely to convince either.
The gist of this for anyone not following
metafandom is the running sore of whether fics depicting things generally considered really squicky and offensive, in a manner that's basically just pr0ny wankfodder, should be condemned, tolerated, or celebrated. As I understand it, the fic the original poster was offended by was a piece of MCR RPS in which one of the Way brothers is regularly leading the other into the woods with the promise of ice-cream, and then proceeding to abuse him, without any in-story comeback. (No, I'm not bloody stupid enough to go check and put the URL on the records of my ISP.) Both posts linked above get their fury on; the money quotes would seem to be redsambuca's "We CANNOT maintain to livejournal and to the public at large that fandom as a whole is AGAINST child abuse if we let fics like this slide" and hector_rashbaum's "I don't ever, ever consider it okay to tell someone their fantasies are Unacceptable".Leaving aside the ethics and legalities of RPF (I understand that the most common view is that it's really about constructed public profiles, not the real people, though if a subject of same ever did sue for libel I suspect you'd need a Cochran-quality lawyer to make that view stick in court) -- to be honest, I have a lot more sympathy with the first view than the second. Especially when it's presented as something I'm supposed to defend vigorously in order to be a Member of Fandom in Good Standing.
Hmm. Let's consider an analogy here. As a Brit, I might not think lager-fuelled wankers getting boisterous in foreign climes deserve to be thrown into hellhole jails for long periods, and would argue against same if I ever had to in a RL situation -- but I really, really wish they wouldn't do it, their thoughtlessness make my entire country look bad. Their kink is understandable but you'd need to squint to consider it okay. To take another quote from Ms Rashbaum: "I'll say this now: I get off on this kind of fic". Come on now, folks: in all honesty, that's the kind of statement that would take some serious deconstruction to not find really, really creepy. I can see how you could parse it so it wasn't, but don't expect most people in fandom to have any great enthusiasm for doing so, and absolutely don't expect most people not in fandom to even try.
Yes, there are perfectly good reasons why someone might write such fics -- e.g. exploration of deviant psychologies, or as a way of working through real-life abuse. The flipside is that there are also crappy reasons for writing them -- e g. a desire to be edgier-than-thou, or for pure zero-depth PWPish titillation. On which topic, Ms Rashbaum disagrees (yes, I did check it was a woman writing -- I think we'd all have far less of a not-a-pervert-really presumption if it was a man):
"Aside from the problem I have with the idea that titillation in and of itself isn't a valid reason to share fantasies of dubious moral fiber, one wonders who
redsambuca would have judge the merits of child molestation fic to determine whether they were "valid" - that's a highly subjective set of criteria. I interpreted that fic very differently than redsambuca, as did a number of commenters - who's right? And who gets to say which one of us has a more valid interpretation, or that an unfavorable interpretation overrules the creator's right to share?"I'm glad you asked that question. The answer: that's what communities do. They give you a distribution of opinion. Are exploring your sexual kinks and getting off good things? Yes -- some of the time. They're just not the sole relevant consideration. Sometimes, doing so goes beyond the pale, despite the fact that it's fantasy -- especially when kids are the subject. True, like many things in life, the merits of the issue can't be decided except on a case-by-case basis -- which is why I can't really see why fics of this kind should be any more immune from fannish outrage, excoriation, and general shunning by people who find them offensive than fics/posts found to be racist, anti-Semitic, heterosexist or whatever. In both cases, it's not banning. It's not censorship. It's an expression of community opinion. The fic/post isn't going to be forcibly removed unless the OP throws a Goodbye Cruel Fandom strop, but they now have a reality check. Maybe the community is wrong -- but maybe they're not and it really isn't okay this time.
So, I suppose after that I should specify some actual suggestions for people writing questionable fic (should anybody care). Er, basically just use common sense and don't get lost in fandom, that's all. If you're writing something questionable, at least have the awareness to know it's questionable. Lots of people are not going to want to see it or find it okay, especially so if the slant is clearly all about getting off on it. Keep it among consenting adults unless you're really, specifically trying to piss people off (and if you do, be prepared for the backlash). Plaster it with the appropriate warnings. Keep it for comms with mostly like-minded people, or at least those sufficiently inured to just roll their eyes and pass on. Don't get all precious about it and cry ZOMGOPRESHUN. Use common sense.
Eh, it's an old familiar subject, and the above ramble isn't meant to be the, or even my, last word. But it's the best edited knee-jerk reaction can provide.
