Auto-Fidelius?

[snorkackcatcher]

A quick drive-by post prompted by a question on canon_evidence about methods of hiding a family if they don't trust anyone to be Secret-Keeper: it occurred to me that the way DH treats the Fidelius Charm is kinda Flinty. No, not the inherited-Secret-Keeperdom that contradicts what JKR said in answer to a poll question (so she changed her mind; the books trump the website as canon sources). This is something a bit more fundamental.

Not too long after the Trio arrive at Shell Cottage, Bill tells them that the bulk of the Weasleys have gone into hiding at Muriel's house, just as they're all in hiding at the cottage, and that they've protected both locations with Fidelius Charms. OK so far, but he then goes on to say that he's the Secret-Keeper for Shell Cottage and Arthur for Muriel's place -- in other words, they're their own Secret-Keepers. (And Lupin reinforces this when he arrives there to tell them about Teddy, and says that Bill told him how to get there.)

Which leads to the obvious question -- why would James and Lily ever have needed to appoint a Secret-Keeper, if one of them could have done it? Yes, I know it's supposed to be a very complex charm according to Flitwick, but that was back in book 3; if Bill and Arthur could cast it it's implausible that neither James nor Lily would have had the ability to bring it off, given how generally talented they were supposed to be. It's rather an important point, as the basic plot of the series can't even get started if Wormtail doesn't betray their location. :)

So did I just miss discussions of this previously, or is there a good explanation other than the obvious: neither JKR nor her editors spotted the implication before publication?

Comments

[train-lindz.livejournal.com]

I was coincidentally thinking about this today.

Personally, I think that its a continuity editing problem in the series. If someone living within the household can be the secret keeper, James and Lily's best bet would be to make baby Harry the secret keeper, because he definitely couldn't tell anyone where he lived ;)

[snorkackcatcher]

Now that's a thought. I wonder if you have to be able to say something as part of casting the spell? :)

Here via daily_snitch

[pauraque]

I think it's a continuity error. The Fidelius Charm is first presented as a complex spell with strict rules. Just as you say, if it worked as presented in DH, the plot simply wouldn't function.

That said, if I had to try to justify it, I might suggest that there's more than one kind of Fidelius Charm -- the complex one Lily & James were using, and simpler ones that are easier to put in place but have some downside, like being easier to break.

Re: Here via daily_snitch

[snorkackcatcher]

That would be a decent recovery shot, yes -- or maybe the charms Bill and Arthur used actually hadn't worked and they never realised it. :)

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

Do we know if Veritaserum can break Fidelius? Might be an extra layer of security.

Also, I'm probably not one to say this, not having read DH since it came out, but are sure they said they were each their own secret keeper, as opposed to being each other's secret keeper? That's even what JKR could have intended, even though she messed up when she wrote it.

[snorkackcatcher]

I wondered that too, but unfortunately they're definitely their own Secret Keepers -- Lupin says Bill told him how to find Shell Cottage when he turns up.

I think the idea is that the keeper must voluntarily reveal the secret, so Veritaserum and Occlumency and the like can't make them, although I guess torture would count.

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

I wonder about torture, since Sirius's first thought, upon hearing that James and Lily had been killed, was that Peter had betrayed them, not that he'd been tortured.

[snorkackcatcher]

Also a fair point. Yes, that wasn't all that definite, was it?

[woldy]

I suspect it's just Jo being inconsistent as usual. Presumably if secret-keeping was a major plot point in DH she'd have given it more thought, but it's not & so she hasn't.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yeah, it has the feel of a quick gloss to cater for the fact that Harry needs to be somewhere safe for a month or so while they plot the Gringotts break-in.

[malinbe.livejournal.com]

I think those two pieces of information contradict each other, but if you want an explanation that would work with canon, I suppose James and Lily might have planned to stay inside the Fideliused house and severe contact with the rest of the world (truly, go into hiding), and prefered that their Secret Keeper was someone from the outside who could act as a mediator between those two worlds. Bill and Arthur not only did not have enough time to plan it but also they might have thought it impractical, since they didn't plan to severe contact completely with the rest of the world.

[michaelho.livejournal.com]

I suppose James and Lily might have planned to stay inside the Fideliused house and severe contact with the rest of the world (truly, go into hiding), and prefered that their Secret Keeper was someone from the outside who could act as a mediator between those two worlds. Bill and Arthur not only did not have enough time to plan it but also they might have thought it impractical, since they didn't plan to severe contact completely with the rest of the world.

This idea confused me, Malinbe; am I just reading you wrong? I can see the idea that someone can't be their own secret-keeper unless they intended to stay in the house all the time (though why that would be presents its own questions; for that answer to work, shouldn't Sirius have been made into the secret-keeper at Grimmauld Place, since he presumably almost never left?), but then you say that Bill and Arthur didn't plan on going into complete hiding...which would mean that they wouldn't have chosen to become their own secret-keepers, right?

I don't know. As is unfortunately the case in other matters as well, DH mixed up a lot of things which Rowling had previously made fairly clear. I blame the stupid Hallows (http://michaelho.livejournal.com/5326.html).

[malinbe.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was almost asleep when I wrote that, so it might be confusing :P
What I proposed is that there are no magical limitations within the charm as to who has to be Secret Keeper. James and Lily might have wanted somebody outside of their own confinement to act as a mediator between the world outside and the world inside Godric's Hollow. Hence, Peter would be the one who chose to disclose the Potters' location in a strictly need-to-know basis (say, other members of the Order). Neither James nor Lily wanted to leave their safe house on a regular basis, and would therefore be unable to share the secret with those who might need to speak to them.

On the other hand, Arthur and Bill didn't have much time to prepare for their own confinement, so it makes sense that both decided to make themselves Secret Keeper rather than find someone else and risk getting caught. Plus, it sounds to me like both Arthur and Bill (and I imagine the others in Muriel's household) didn't stay put at all times. That makes it unnecesary to need an outsider to act as mediator, since they aren't severing all contact with the world outside.

Is it any clearer?

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, that is the result in a number of cases, unfortunately (I'm still not convinced that Apparition was always meant to require a wand, given that the tutor in HBP never mentioned this salient point despite apparently starting from first principles). malinbe's suggestion below would work, although since absolute safety was the priority it doesn't quite read that way in PoA.

[michaelho.livejournal.com]

Ack, yes, Apparition! That's another one to add to the list of Reasons Why Someone Should Have Made Rowling Start Over with Deathly Hallows Before it was Too Late.

[scratchingpost1.livejournal.com]

Wow. I never thought my question (http://community.livejournal.com/canon_evidence/52092.html) on canon_evidence would result in such a discussion. I really have a lot to think about now. Thanks, everyone.

[snorkackcatcher]

You're welcome. :)