A Post of Ice and Fire
Jan. 12th, 2009 11:16 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
snorkackcatcherI've been meaning to post something on this for a while, after doing a reread a few months back in the expectation that A Dance with Dragons would soon be published (laughs hollowly). So the following is just random thoughts on the Song of Ice and Fire series. PLEASE NOTE that it contains spoilers for events in all books up to the end of A Feast For Crows (quite literally!), plus a couple of preview chapters.
It's true what everyone says -- you really do need to reread this to pick up on a lot of what's going on, especially as it has what is by now almost literally a cast of thousands. Certain things seem different; when reading for the first time I was hoping poor Robb would be able to pull something out of the hat again right up to the Red Wedding, but second time around his situation looked a lot more doomed -- because I already knew the meanings of things such as Roose Bolton's conversation with Jaime and the letter being written by Tywin Lannister.
Mostly my likes and dislikes among the characters have stayed the same. Cersei seems even worse -- far too much of an entitlement complex, and although she can play the game of thrones well enough against opponents of lesser skill such as Robert and Ned, she's completely out of her depth in the big league. Tyrion is still a great character, even as a patricide -- it's hard not to cheer when Lord Tywin gets bumped off. Bizarrely, Jaime is actually likeable now, which takes some doing for a character who throws a kid out of a window in his first scene because the kid had caught him shagging his sister ... there seems to be a significant Redemptive Arc going on there. (Oddly, I can actually imagine how a Jaime/Loras ship might be made to work, if the latter survives and isn't too badly burnt. A rarity for me, that. :D)
Offspring Joffrey is still more appalling the second time around, and while I'm not entirely sure about Margaery Tyrell, on the whole I still like her. She seemed less clued up than I thought first time around, but still has more natural understanding of queenship in her little finger than Cersei does in her entire body and soul. And although she might have helped kill Joffrey -- to be fair, bumping the little bastard off constitutes a pretty good service to the realm. Most likely the trial will vindicate her -- Martin makes a point of providing an explanation for the Case of the Missing Maidenhead, and as for the moon tea, she has a number of young female companions who could doubtless find it useful and say so in court. (My theory originally was that she might have been using it to get rid of Renly's child, but the timing doesn't seem to work for that.)
As for Cersei, I suppose her next move is to try to get Frankengregor appointed as a member of the Kingsguard -- after the events in Dorne, there's a vacancy coming up even if no-one in King's Landing realises it yet. Given that prophecies seem to have some punch to them in Westeros, sadly it seems that Tommen and Myrcella are probably due for the chop soon.
Daenerys was a great character in the first three books, and to judge by the preview chapters will be coming into her own as a queen in DwD as she continues to learn on the job. Tyrion will probably be meeting up with her, which gives rise to some interesting possibilities, as does the "three betrayals". Victarion might be the betrayal for love; he's planning to court her himself rather than pass on his brother's message, and given Drogo he seems her type -- tough and good looking with honour by his own cultural lights, but still essentially a brutal brigand. (Yes, I know the Dothraki and the Ironborn have fascinating cultures yada yada, but they're both a bunch of murderous bastards even by Westeros standards.) Incidentally, anyone else agree that Dany might be not just the younger queen who will supplant Cersei but also the valonquar who will bring her down? If the Valyrian pronouns etc are gender-neutral and thus Aemon thought she might be the "Prince who was Promised", why couldn't "little brother" be "little sister" (of Rhaegar) too?
Jon ... ah yes, Jon. I liked him better this time (first time I tended to find him a bit irritating, although I was probably forgetting that he's only supposed to be 14-15). Also, I'm coming round to the theory of his great significance to the story -- in other words, yes, I think he quite likely is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, just because of what's not said in the text. There's a Ned POV in which he's thinking about a promise he made his dying sister on her 'bed of blood', nature of said promise left suspiciously unspecified -- but that phrase certainly suggests a difficult childbirth, no? Also, in a Catelyn POV, she's fulminating against Ned having foisted Jon on them with the words "he's my blood". Not, you note, "my son", which seems possibly significant. I know it's a bit of a clichéd theory now, but it's certainly well buried in the text itself (as opposed to the fan discussions), and quite likely I wouldn't have noticed it unless I'd seen it raised before. And there's more: that line about the "Prince who was Promised" being something like "His is the song of ice and fire" certainly sounds like it might be a reference to a Stark-Targaryen offspring. If Jon is so central it explains his somewhat Stuish feel. (This is as good a place as any to moan about the fact that the books don't have individual chapter titles or an index. It's a bugger even trying to find the right chapter to look things like those up, which is why I'm not giving chapter and verse.)
I'm warming to Sansa -- er, sorry, Alayne -- after finding her mostly an annoying little drip for the first three books. (Yes, I know. I'm being harsh on her, romantic kid thrown into a perilous situation and all that.) She's now getting an excellent education in playing the game of thrones from Petyr (although it's clearly not the only game he'd like to educate her in playing!), and will presumably now continue to be the only POV in which we see his scheming at first hand. He (and Varys too) are the kind of wonderfully entertaining Machiavellian characters whose plans would tend to unravel a lot more quickly in real life.
I hadn't appreciated quite how important Stannis was to the plot, as well as Melisandre -- mostly I suppose because he's off-stage for virtually all of GoT and FfC, and a surprise element in SoS, and the importance of the role of the Lord of Light religion of which she's a priestess only slowly comes to light (sorry) as the series progresses. Not to mention the temple Arya's linked up with, and of course the Others. Indeed, we seems to be heading towards an increasingly apocalyptic ending as everything comes together in what will likely be quite a different tone from much of the early books. Doubtless we can expect a lot of Stannis and Melisandre interacting with Jon during DwD, especially if he really is of royal blood via Rhaegar.
In which context, what happened to that legitimating decree that Robb was planning to sign, naming Jon as his heir as King of the North? If he did sign it and it showed up at the Wall (its brief one-off mention is kind of suspicious, as if he didn't sign it's an element that doesn't seem to be going anywhere) -- well, that would put the cat among the pigeons in a number of ways, and give both Jon and Stannis some awkward problems. Doubtless we get Wall POV's in DwD from both Jon and Davos. (As an aside, I suspect the latter hasn't really been executed. The evidence shown -- a hand with missing fingers, I believe -- isn't exactly conclusive. According to GRRM, even Theon is still alive, which surprised me -- although he may wish he weren't, as he's apparently being flayed in the Dreadfort.)
Archmaester Marwyn seems to be shaping up to be a key player. On a reread you can see the little mentions of him Martin's been dropping into the text since GoT (Mirri Maz Duur mentions him, although not by name), and even though we only see him onstage at the end of FfC, clearly he has an idea about what's going on and a plan for what to do next. Given the timing he doubtless won't play much role in the early part of DwD, but might well turn up towards the end. Where he'd be heading, I'm not sure -- either the Wall or at Daenerys's court, probably.
I must admit to finding the closeness with which Martin sticks to his sources a little irritating sometimes, although that may just be snark for his views on fanfiction, of course. (There's not too much invention involved in changing "Sir" to "Ser" and "Khan" to "Khal", George.) It's probably a good thing on balance: on the one hand, it adds great texture to his world. On the other, you can find yourself playing Spot-the-Parallel, and occasionally discover that something you thought was purely a Westeros element is based on the real world. (I came across a reference to Greek fire quite by accident, for example, and realised that it must be what "wildfire" was based on.)
Odd small things:
When Varys visits Ned in the black cells in GoT. Ned asks if Varys can smuggle out a letter from him, and our spider says that he will gladly bring him paper and pen, but will then use or not use the message as he sees fit. I always wondered if such a letter would ever appear -- I can't think of a letter it might have been? Unless it was the warning to Stannis about Joffrey's parentage, but I thought that was sent by Ned personally before his arrest.
Ser Shadrich, the Mighty Mouse -- when Brienne meets him on the road early in FfC, he says he's looking for Sansa. Towards the end, he turns up in the Vale as one of the sellswords Littlefinger hires for extra protection. Is this part of one of Petyr's Cunning Plans, or is it the slip that's going to bring him down?
I wonder what happened to Osha and Rickon? I can't think of even a hint of their activities since they split up with Bran, Hodor, and the Reeds. Bran's story has been on slow burn, really, and hasn't captured my imagination much, but presumably it gets more dramatic later on. Not that he's the only character who'd done that -- Arya has basically been wandering around Westeros and now Braavos for four books and only occasionally coming into contact with the major events. She does however seem to be turning into quite an effective little assassin and might be making the reverse journey to Jaime -- one wonders if Jon will eventually be forced to take up the sword against her.
What was the word Brienne screamed? On the whole, after reading it again my money's on 'sword'. She's watching Pod choke and probably can't bear the responsibility of getting him hanged, let alone Ser Hyle and herself, so in desperation agrees to go back to kill Jaime. (She never swore him an oath.) And if so, that's going to cause her real anguish, isn't it? Of course, even someone as pigheaded as Brienne might eventually conclude that oaths sworn to a crazed zombie, and exacted with a noose around your neck, don't necessarily have to be considered binding. For further information on this point, consult any septon.
I didn't notice until the reread, but right at the end of FfC Sam is talking to Pate 'like the pig-boy' -- except of course that Pate was (AFAICT) poisoned in the prologue. Since the mysterious man who wanted the keys to the Citadel is almost certainly Jaqen H'ghar (because as someone pointed out on an ASOIAF forum, his appearance is identical to the one Jaqen assumed when he took his leave of Arya), I think we can say equally surely that 'Pate' is now Jaqen with a new glamour. Exactly what the Faceless Man wants to get from the Citadel is an interesting field for speculation.
It's true what everyone says -- you really do need to reread this to pick up on a lot of what's going on, especially as it has what is by now almost literally a cast of thousands. Certain things seem different; when reading for the first time I was hoping poor Robb would be able to pull something out of the hat again right up to the Red Wedding, but second time around his situation looked a lot more doomed -- because I already knew the meanings of things such as Roose Bolton's conversation with Jaime and the letter being written by Tywin Lannister.
Mostly my likes and dislikes among the characters have stayed the same. Cersei seems even worse -- far too much of an entitlement complex, and although she can play the game of thrones well enough against opponents of lesser skill such as Robert and Ned, she's completely out of her depth in the big league. Tyrion is still a great character, even as a patricide -- it's hard not to cheer when Lord Tywin gets bumped off. Bizarrely, Jaime is actually likeable now, which takes some doing for a character who throws a kid out of a window in his first scene because the kid had caught him shagging his sister ... there seems to be a significant Redemptive Arc going on there. (Oddly, I can actually imagine how a Jaime/Loras ship might be made to work, if the latter survives and isn't too badly burnt. A rarity for me, that. :D)
Offspring Joffrey is still more appalling the second time around, and while I'm not entirely sure about Margaery Tyrell, on the whole I still like her. She seemed less clued up than I thought first time around, but still has more natural understanding of queenship in her little finger than Cersei does in her entire body and soul. And although she might have helped kill Joffrey -- to be fair, bumping the little bastard off constitutes a pretty good service to the realm. Most likely the trial will vindicate her -- Martin makes a point of providing an explanation for the Case of the Missing Maidenhead, and as for the moon tea, she has a number of young female companions who could doubtless find it useful and say so in court. (My theory originally was that she might have been using it to get rid of Renly's child, but the timing doesn't seem to work for that.)
As for Cersei, I suppose her next move is to try to get Frankengregor appointed as a member of the Kingsguard -- after the events in Dorne, there's a vacancy coming up even if no-one in King's Landing realises it yet. Given that prophecies seem to have some punch to them in Westeros, sadly it seems that Tommen and Myrcella are probably due for the chop soon.
Daenerys was a great character in the first three books, and to judge by the preview chapters will be coming into her own as a queen in DwD as she continues to learn on the job. Tyrion will probably be meeting up with her, which gives rise to some interesting possibilities, as does the "three betrayals". Victarion might be the betrayal for love; he's planning to court her himself rather than pass on his brother's message, and given Drogo he seems her type -- tough and good looking with honour by his own cultural lights, but still essentially a brutal brigand. (Yes, I know the Dothraki and the Ironborn have fascinating cultures yada yada, but they're both a bunch of murderous bastards even by Westeros standards.) Incidentally, anyone else agree that Dany might be not just the younger queen who will supplant Cersei but also the valonquar who will bring her down? If the Valyrian pronouns etc are gender-neutral and thus Aemon thought she might be the "Prince who was Promised", why couldn't "little brother" be "little sister" (of Rhaegar) too?
Jon ... ah yes, Jon. I liked him better this time (first time I tended to find him a bit irritating, although I was probably forgetting that he's only supposed to be 14-15). Also, I'm coming round to the theory of his great significance to the story -- in other words, yes, I think he quite likely is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, just because of what's not said in the text. There's a Ned POV in which he's thinking about a promise he made his dying sister on her 'bed of blood', nature of said promise left suspiciously unspecified -- but that phrase certainly suggests a difficult childbirth, no? Also, in a Catelyn POV, she's fulminating against Ned having foisted Jon on them with the words "he's my blood". Not, you note, "my son", which seems possibly significant. I know it's a bit of a clichéd theory now, but it's certainly well buried in the text itself (as opposed to the fan discussions), and quite likely I wouldn't have noticed it unless I'd seen it raised before. And there's more: that line about the "Prince who was Promised" being something like "His is the song of ice and fire" certainly sounds like it might be a reference to a Stark-Targaryen offspring. If Jon is so central it explains his somewhat Stuish feel. (This is as good a place as any to moan about the fact that the books don't have individual chapter titles or an index. It's a bugger even trying to find the right chapter to look things like those up, which is why I'm not giving chapter and verse.)
I'm warming to Sansa -- er, sorry, Alayne -- after finding her mostly an annoying little drip for the first three books. (Yes, I know. I'm being harsh on her, romantic kid thrown into a perilous situation and all that.) She's now getting an excellent education in playing the game of thrones from Petyr (although it's clearly not the only game he'd like to educate her in playing!), and will presumably now continue to be the only POV in which we see his scheming at first hand. He (and Varys too) are the kind of wonderfully entertaining Machiavellian characters whose plans would tend to unravel a lot more quickly in real life.
I hadn't appreciated quite how important Stannis was to the plot, as well as Melisandre -- mostly I suppose because he's off-stage for virtually all of GoT and FfC, and a surprise element in SoS, and the importance of the role of the Lord of Light religion of which she's a priestess only slowly comes to light (sorry) as the series progresses. Not to mention the temple Arya's linked up with, and of course the Others. Indeed, we seems to be heading towards an increasingly apocalyptic ending as everything comes together in what will likely be quite a different tone from much of the early books. Doubtless we can expect a lot of Stannis and Melisandre interacting with Jon during DwD, especially if he really is of royal blood via Rhaegar.
In which context, what happened to that legitimating decree that Robb was planning to sign, naming Jon as his heir as King of the North? If he did sign it and it showed up at the Wall (its brief one-off mention is kind of suspicious, as if he didn't sign it's an element that doesn't seem to be going anywhere) -- well, that would put the cat among the pigeons in a number of ways, and give both Jon and Stannis some awkward problems. Doubtless we get Wall POV's in DwD from both Jon and Davos. (As an aside, I suspect the latter hasn't really been executed. The evidence shown -- a hand with missing fingers, I believe -- isn't exactly conclusive. According to GRRM, even Theon is still alive, which surprised me -- although he may wish he weren't, as he's apparently being flayed in the Dreadfort.)
Archmaester Marwyn seems to be shaping up to be a key player. On a reread you can see the little mentions of him Martin's been dropping into the text since GoT (Mirri Maz Duur mentions him, although not by name), and even though we only see him onstage at the end of FfC, clearly he has an idea about what's going on and a plan for what to do next. Given the timing he doubtless won't play much role in the early part of DwD, but might well turn up towards the end. Where he'd be heading, I'm not sure -- either the Wall or at Daenerys's court, probably.
I must admit to finding the closeness with which Martin sticks to his sources a little irritating sometimes, although that may just be snark for his views on fanfiction, of course. (There's not too much invention involved in changing "Sir" to "Ser" and "Khan" to "Khal", George.) It's probably a good thing on balance: on the one hand, it adds great texture to his world. On the other, you can find yourself playing Spot-the-Parallel, and occasionally discover that something you thought was purely a Westeros element is based on the real world. (I came across a reference to Greek fire quite by accident, for example, and realised that it must be what "wildfire" was based on.)
Odd small things:
When Varys visits Ned in the black cells in GoT. Ned asks if Varys can smuggle out a letter from him, and our spider says that he will gladly bring him paper and pen, but will then use or not use the message as he sees fit. I always wondered if such a letter would ever appear -- I can't think of a letter it might have been? Unless it was the warning to Stannis about Joffrey's parentage, but I thought that was sent by Ned personally before his arrest.
Ser Shadrich, the Mighty Mouse -- when Brienne meets him on the road early in FfC, he says he's looking for Sansa. Towards the end, he turns up in the Vale as one of the sellswords Littlefinger hires for extra protection. Is this part of one of Petyr's Cunning Plans, or is it the slip that's going to bring him down?
I wonder what happened to Osha and Rickon? I can't think of even a hint of their activities since they split up with Bran, Hodor, and the Reeds. Bran's story has been on slow burn, really, and hasn't captured my imagination much, but presumably it gets more dramatic later on. Not that he's the only character who'd done that -- Arya has basically been wandering around Westeros and now Braavos for four books and only occasionally coming into contact with the major events. She does however seem to be turning into quite an effective little assassin and might be making the reverse journey to Jaime -- one wonders if Jon will eventually be forced to take up the sword against her.
What was the word Brienne screamed? On the whole, after reading it again my money's on 'sword'. She's watching Pod choke and probably can't bear the responsibility of getting him hanged, let alone Ser Hyle and herself, so in desperation agrees to go back to kill Jaime. (She never swore him an oath.) And if so, that's going to cause her real anguish, isn't it? Of course, even someone as pigheaded as Brienne might eventually conclude that oaths sworn to a crazed zombie, and exacted with a noose around your neck, don't necessarily have to be considered binding. For further information on this point, consult any septon.
I didn't notice until the reread, but right at the end of FfC Sam is talking to Pate 'like the pig-boy' -- except of course that Pate was (AFAICT) poisoned in the prologue. Since the mysterious man who wanted the keys to the Citadel is almost certainly Jaqen H'ghar (because as someone pointed out on an ASOIAF forum, his appearance is identical to the one Jaqen assumed when he took his leave of Arya), I think we can say equally surely that 'Pate' is now Jaqen with a new glamour. Exactly what the Faceless Man wants to get from the Citadel is an interesting field for speculation.
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no subject
Date: 2009-01-12 11:41 pm (UTC)On the other, you can find yourself playing Spot-the-Parallel, and occasionally discover that something you thought was purely a Westeros element is based on the real world.
I actually have the opposite problem, but that is mainly because I keep attempting to break my brain by aligning characters to figures from the fifteenth century. The parallels start off very strongly for me, and then just break off and run wild about halfway through AGoT, which is certainly a good thing, but always catches me off-guard, even when I'm rereading.
I didn't have much of an opinion on Margaery Tyrell until AFfC, but I think she's far, far cleverer than most people are aware, and I will be very curious to see what she does next.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-13 10:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-14 10:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-13 06:33 am (UTC)It was Livejournal that got me interested in reading these, and now I'm hooked. MOAR PLZ. (when IS that happening?)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-13 10:30 pm (UTC)I probably wouldn't have thought about that theory of Jon's parentage either if I hadn't seen it on fansites, but when you read with it in mind it does sound plausible.