Ambiguous reactins to Torchwood S2 so far

[snorkackcatcher]

Hmm ...


I've now seen the first three episodes of S2 -- and I have to say my reaction is a bit mixed.

I didn't get into Torchwood until the end of the first series repeats, so obviously I'm a little late to the party -- but it still seems to be missing a certain something compared to DW and SJA. I think that thing may be sufficient quantities of heart. For me TW suffers from the 'Voyager Effect' -- I'm not finding it easy to care overmuch about most of the characters.

Partly this is due to Jack -- as an article put it the other day: "Captain Jack is a shitty boss. He's sassy and fun as the Doctor's sidekick, but when he's in charge he becomes an uptight middle manager." OK, that's a bit unfair, but it's uncomfortably close to the mark -- Jack-as-lead isn't nearly as likeable as Jack-as-companion.

Partly it's that the first episode was so much fun that the next two have been a bit of a letdown. Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang was crack, but good crack -- a racy plot that didn't take itself too seriously, lots of snappy lines, and the team in much more relaxed mode. Sleeper had a reasonable if routine plot, albeit one that gave the impression of being there largely to provide hooks for later shows. (The aliens weren't especially interesting -- disguised Earth invaders are ten-a-penny in the Whoniverse, after all -- but here's hoping that they don't turn out to be the TW equivalent of the neck-burrowing aliens in S1 of ST:TNG, who subsequently vanished down the script memory hole.) To the Last Man had many good ingredients, but I'm not sure they were well blended together, although it's not easy to do that in a 45min show. I think in both cases my niggle was that the most interesting thing about the storyline was the situation of the episode guest character, and it was hard to fully get a handle on that because the POV focus wasn't on them so much as the TW team

The romances especially are unsatisfying, in a very common way -- they seem to appear from nowhere without enough in-universe time for them to credibly develop. Here, Tosh and Tommy (not sure whether I like the name associations here or find them corny) have known each other a grand total of four days (awake). Like Owen's dalliance with the pilot from the 1950s, frankly that doesn't seem enough time for emotions to be engaged on more than a basic level. Of course it's a very frequent trope in TV shows (not to mention books and films) where the writers want to work in a single-story romance for a character, but repetition doesn't make it any more convincing -- as thelana said elsewhere in a different context, it's pretty much a badfic trope made canon. If it gets play later on as a kind of experience Owen and Tosh share which is used to draw them together and develop their relationship in the way that's been hinted at, I'll be much more inclined to give it a pass as necessary setup.

But to finish on a more positive note, some of the aforementioned good ingredients in To the Last Man: Jack talking about having been through the First World War, which I was waiting for. Some further development of Jack/Ianto, which seems to be developing some chemistry now it's moved from left field to occasional centre stage. A worthy, if perhaps slightly heavy-handed, set of themes of heroism The time-locked sealed orders. And last but by no means least, a glimpse of the original Torchwood in action!

Comments

[house-illrepute.livejournal.com]

The romances especially are unsatisfying, in a very common way -- they seem to appear from nowhere without enough in-universe time for them to credibly develop.

and this is part of my beef with Brit shows and they're 10-13 episode-per-season. i mean, if you're trying to create a universe and establish character traits, you really need more than 13 episodes to do it... and you don't want to be spending season 2 doing shit season 1 should have done for you...

i look at any sci-fi/fantasy serial like that, that have only had a half-season here in the US (ie. Buffy, Kyle XY) and they kinda suffer the same thing. not so much kyle xy, tho, but they had some extenuating circumstances...

Here, Tosh and Tommy (not sure whether I like the name associations here or find them corny) have known each other a grand total of four days (awake).

i assumed they'd play up more her clinginess... yeah, she's had four days to know the real him, but she's had FOUR YEARS to obsess over him and do what, for instance, fans do to their fave celebrities...

him wanting to get laid, well... i can't blame him for that...

Like Owen's dalliance with the pilot from the 1950s, frankly that doesn't seem enough time for emotions to be engaged on more than a basic level.

it seemed like they needed to 'soften' Owen up a bit, and then of course, to have his crisis moment the next episode... but really, they have the best -- and most subtle -- way of doing that: his bedside manners.

even when dealing with Tommy, he was a bit no-nonsense, but he got in some good camera face-tie that showed his softer side. use that rather than some obvious nonsense that i found completely unbelievable...

and then it seemed as tho' they were deliberately trying to hook up Toss and Owen with the "we loved someone who got sucked back into time wah wah", as you mentioned...


it's funny that you mention 'bad-fic', because there's so many things about the show aside from the 'romance' that screams it, like... super-powered!HarryJack... or the "you work for me and put your life on the line and something big's coming but i'm not gonna/can't tell you" schtick -- which is getting fuckin' old. it screams "writers actually haven't thought of anything yet" to me...

and it seems like it's the writers' trying to make Jack SO cool (i dunno, maybe to offset that he's an American?) and, like inexperienced fanfic writers, they think making him über-bad-ass is the route to go.

it is getting old because, the same with super-man, in order to have someone that can compete with Jack, they have to be as 'bad-ass' as Jack... but that runs into problems later on, as it always does in comics, television, and movies.

In fact, when Jack was like "I was in the War", I threw my hands up, utterly done -- when HAVEN'T been? I mean, I understand that he's a time traveler, but dammit, gimme a break here!

And last but by no means least, a glimpse of the original Torchwood in action!

hrmm... i don't think they were the original, were they? i mean, TORCHWOOD was 'founded' during the Werewolf episode of Dr. Who, which was way before then, wasn't it?


I like that Ianto's character has loosened up. I consider it a drastic character change, however, but that happens a lot between season 1 and 2 of a series. He was far too stiff to be likable, and i actually like him this way, with the quips and shit.

Still, i wish the writers would stop with the ever-sliding sexuality. i find it unlikely that a 5-person team fighting aliens would find 3 (basically) bisexuals... i mean, damn... it's okay to be heterosexual. but it's starting to seem like a trick to be 'cool' -- and i had enough of the "i'm cool b-c i'm bi" schtick in high school. ;-)

[jdbracknell.livejournal.com]

I'm really enjoying this series of Torchwood so far, although I think that's largely relief that they've dropped a lot of the stuff that bugged me about series 1, like the excessive swearing and pointless sex scenes to prove We're A Show For Grown-Ups, but I totally agree about the romances.

I think the Tommy/Tosh storyline could have been made a lot more compelling if we'd seen him before - there's no reason they couldn't have had an episode in which he was a background character in series 1, or had some mention of him and Tosh's feelings of him in some earlier episode (setting aside that the writer probably didn't have any involvement in earlier episodes, which I think is what holds British TV back a lot of the time, the isolation of the writers and each episode from the rest of the series). I think the problem with Torchwood is that there doesn't seem to be a sense that I'm watching a series - I'm watching individual 45 minute dramas that just happen to feature the same characters, and that would be a really easy thing to fix, because all you need is one central storyline or relationship to connect everything together. They could have done that with the Jack/Ianto reltaionship, or with James Marsters' character sticking around for a bit longer and not having his storyline squashed into one episode, or even with the idea of Jack needing to win back the team's support after abandoning them.

I don't know if you've watched Pushing Daisies, but I think it's a great example of how you can tell a series of unrelated stories if you string them together with an over-arching romantic storyline, and I think that's all Torchwood really needs. And for them to do something interesting with Jack. I feel he's a great character, but very underused in Torchwood so far, relegated, really, to a vaguely sad figure in the background who's just there to make tough decisions. I think it'd be nice to see a bit of fire and fun in him, like he had in The Doctor Dances.

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

I agree that everything has seemed a bit of a letdown after that explosive first episode, except for Jack/Ianto, which makes me happy.

That being said, there were some good moments in this episode. I liked how they were able to subtly bring in aspects of the First World War through Tommy (i.e. shellshock) without being too heavy-handed about it. And seeing Original Torchwood was fantastic. I want more of them. I must admit I have a weakness for episodes involving time (no, really?) rather than alien antics, so I enjoyed 'To the Last Man' much more than 'Sleeper'. I'm waiting for Martha at this point. I think she'll improve Jack's mood a great deal and possibly make him a better boss by calming him down.

[such_heights]

Yeah, I agree with a lot of this, especially in that I do wish they did more with Jack, because you're right, he is sort of dull middle-management a lot of the time, which is a waste of a character that is the show's whole reason for being!

[snorkackcatcher]

I suppose it could be that they;re showing him having problems moving from solo adventurer to someone taking responsibility for a team -- but he really ought to be showing progress in that by now ...

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, I'm looking forward to Martha again (it should be interesting to see her away from the Dootor, too). As for Jack/Ianto, I liked that it was Ianto taking the initiative here, although I'm not sure if they're implying that this was the first real snog or that they've been an item for a little while now.

TTLM did admittedly seem better on a second look -- there was some subtlety connected with Tommy losing his current memories and seeing a 'vision' of Toshiko that made him trust her that was nicely circular and that I missed first time around!

[snorkackcatcher]

Yes, it would have been nice to see setup for this -- but I suppose that the entire plot idea was dreamed up between S1 and S2. I'm not sure it's solely a fault of UK series, mind you, it seems to be (or have been) a standard practice in the USA too. Star Trek TNG and Voyager were notorious for it.

Haven't seen Pushing Daisies, but I agree about Jack -- I wasn't sure about bringing him into the end of S3 DW, but he worked there -- he was an engaging character. In TW he seems to have dreadful people skills, except where they relate to getting them into bed. (Maybe not even there, if the jokes about his manners in bed weren't just jokes. :D)

[snorkackcatcher]

this is part of my beef with Brit shows and they're 10-13 episode-per-season. i mean, if you're trying to create a universe and establish character traits, you really need more than 13 episodes to do it... and you don't want to be spending season 2 doing shit season 1 should have done for you

Fair point, although I do think you can also get the effect with longer seasons of more 'filler' episodes that don't necessarily advance the plotlines much. But it gives you more scope. I suppose the upside is that a shorter season means a smaller budget, so UK shows can commit to a whole season in advance rather than being pulled halfway through.


i assumed they'd play up more her clinginess... yeah, she's had four days to know the real him, but she's had FOUR YEARS to obsess over him and do what, for instance, fans do to their fave celebrities...

Yeah, that might have been what they were going for with Tosh -- her people skills don't seem to come naturally. Also, when I was watching the repeat I noticed something I missed first time around -- I got the impression that he had a sort of vision of her (via mental projection) before being taken away, which would incline him to trsut her when he sees her for real? Might have to check that one.


and it seems like it's the writers' trying to make Jack SO cool (i dunno, maybe to offset that he's an American?) and, like inexperienced fanfic writers, they think making him über-bad-ass is the route to go

Yes -- he doesn't come across as that cool, just didactic and touchy. It's not at all like the way he is in DW. I do wonder how much the scriptwriters think of him as an American (given that he's actually supposed to be from some 51^st-century colony planet).


hrmm... i don't think they were the original, were they? i mean, TORCHWOOD was 'founded' during the Werewolf episode of Dr. Who, which was way before then, wasn't it?

Not the original personnel, no -- but 'original' in the sense of being the version of Torchwood that Queen Vic set up -- the whole 'for the greater glory of the British Empire' ethos. Because apart from this episode, I don't think we've seen any examples of them in action until the disaster with the Cybermen and the Daleks that ended the original version.


Still, i wish the writers would stop with the ever-sliding sexuality. i find it unlikely that a 5-person team fighting aliens would find 3 (basically) bisexuals... i mean, damn... it's okay to be heterosexual. but it's starting to seem like a trick to be 'cool' -- and i had enough of the "i'm cool b-c i'm bi" schtick in high school. ;-)

That's another common but silly fic trope, but here ... it's the canon. :) It's probably going over the top to Make A Point, but to be fair I don't suppose it's any sillier than the usual scifi trope in which all aliens fancy each other regardless of species and can apparently interbreed without even needing any special medical procedures ...

[house-illrepute.livejournal.com]

Fair point, although I do think you can also get the effect with longer seasons of more 'filler' episodes that don't necessarily advance the plotlines much. But it gives you more scope.

oh my gawd, you're absolutely right. some times a show has those 'wtf is the point' moments when there's 22 eps to contend with. it's like the US has the absolute opposite problem as the UK -- too many shows.

plus, i realise that the UK is in a dif't predicament than the US. our production talent pool is larger by loads and we can go to Toronto, actually SAVE money doing so, and have access to THEIR large talent pool.

and the US wastes so much fuckin' money licensing pilots that will never see the light of day -- it's utterly ridiculous how much we blow on shit.

I suppose the upside is that a shorter season means a smaller budget, so UK shows can commit to a whole season in advance rather than being pulled halfway through.

that half-way-pull thing is a recent US phenom, tho... and unfortunately, i think everyone that they did it with went on to be successes in some sense, so now i do think we will expect it more often than unfortunately.

which does suck... mostly because it relies too much on the shows fan response to retool and focus ideas, and justifies poor planning and writing. i mean, JERICHO for instance, suffered from it. after 6 weeks, it was off for awhile and then it seemed like almost everyone who had negative fan response was gone or their sub-plots were dismissed.

that sucks.

i don't want fandom dictating a show. i want a show that's already written and ready to go; let me decide if i like it. i don't need Joe Blow America writing a show.

I got the impression that he had a sort of vision of her (via mental projection) before being taken away, which would incline him to trsut her when he sees her for real? Might have to check that one.

yeah... so the one does preclude the other. he was shell-shocked then, of course, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have had an subconscious 'feeling' that he could trust Tosh, certainly. luckily Jack let Tosh do the image projection, if not...

It's probably going over the top to Make A Point,

yeah, and at least it's not a school-worth of British kids and nary a homo in sight, save for the posthumous recognition of the headmaster... ;-)

but to be fair I don't suppose it's any sillier than the usual scifi trope in which all aliens fancy each other regardless of species and can apparently interbreed without even needing any special medical procedures ...

very true, but at least Star Trek explained it rather convincingly, once they finally got around to it.

[snorkackcatcher]

at least Star Trek explained it rather convincingly, once they finally got around to it

They did? :) I saw a bit of recognition in Bashir's help being needed when Worf and Jadzia were trying for a baby, but I can't remember a clear treatment of it otherwise.

The silliest bit I remember was in Voyager, when -- er, damn, can't remember her name, the Cardassian spy who was posing as a Bajoran -- took a sample of DNA from Chakotay to get pregnant with. OK, so far so average, but she then convinced the Kazon warlord she was with that the cross-species pregnancy was a perfectly non-technological one because Chakotay had 'forced' her. The Kazon accepted this theory, presumably not having had the lecture on whatever the Delta Quadrant have instead of the birds and the bees. Worse, it was revealed later that the child actually was the Kazon's, presumably conceived naturally depsite the fact that the parents were from species originating from planets on opposite sides of the galaxy ... Added to the fact that the characters had for a while been behaving in general with so much stupid it hurt, I nearly gave up on the series at that point. :)

[house-illrepute.livejournal.com]

They did? :)

yeah, it was in ST:TNG. some alien-cosmic being said something like "haven't you wondered why all you bitches kinda look alike?"

and he said that the original space explorers basically used the same genetic material to propagate the universe. not all the universe, mind, but basically every humanoid-carbon-based alien that we've come in contact are related in that sense.

i don't think they ret-conned that, but they might have.