Plagiarism and all that [1]

[snorkackcatcher]

I've just realised that I have no integrity. (You probably noticed that already.)



The latest Cassandra Claire reports have shown that I obviously have a rather lax approach to plagiarism, being unable to regard it as a crime akin to selling crack to minors, and this is clearly nothing but heresy. You see, I don't think the occasional use in a work of fiction of a phrase or a general concept that comes from somewhere else really matters a pitcher of warm spit^[2] even if you don't cite it with a neat little footnote. It happens all the time, and writers -- famous writers, obscure writers, yes even fanfic writers -- have always done it. PG Wodehouse practically made a style out of it. It's not worth calling 'plagiarism'.

In short, something like this suggested example from the Draco Trilogy:^[3]

Gravity is a harsh mistress.

The Tick (TV series based on a comic book)

Come on, Harry, get up. No, don't fall back down again. Yes, I know, gravity is a harsh mistress. But we have to learn to work with her. Now come along...

Draco Veritas by Cassandra Claire

One five word phrase, borrowed without citation. My reaction: oh whatever. The original is most likely a riff on the title of Heinlein's classic story The Moon is a Harsh Mistress anyway. I'd be astonished if that were cited by the producers of The Tick, and for all I know Heinlein himself took the 'harsh mistress' phrasing from somewhere else. If you wish to draw up a Cassandra Claire charge sheet, this one and others like it aren't worth presenting to the court.

What is worth calling plagiarism then? Wholesale ripping off, that's what. Copying whole passages, changing a few words and character names, and dropping them into your story. Especially if you take the key plot ideas they embody to construct your own plot.

And saw his own hand, severed just above the wrist and lying, bleeding and lost, under the edge of Cyrion's sword.
...
Cyrion, having taken Ysemid's severed hand in his own, had clamped its fingers, tonglike, on the sapphire and ripped the amulet free. ... Now, gaining his feet without effort, Cyrion flung the bloody hand and its gem into the sand before Karuil-Ysem.
...
Cyrion, his voice dry and eroded, shouted at Karuil. "Plucked from him by his own hand, and given you by his own hand. Pick it up, damn you, and use it."

A Lynx With Lions by Tanith Lee

Draco brought the sword down, a wave of brilliant green fire. The blade struck against the Snake Lord´s wrist, neatly severing his hand. He shrieked aloud as fire poured from his wounded arm, an indescribable shriek of rage and horror, and his severed hand tumbled at Draco´s feet. Beyond disgust, beyond anything but a terrible sort of exultation, Draco seized the mutilated hand of the Snake Lord, clamped the fingers tong-like around the hilt of his sword, and flung them together into the pentagram inked on the floor.

He threw his head back then, and, his voice furious and carrying, shouted at the invisible forces of Hell. "There you go! Your half of the bargain! Given to you by his own hand, the hand of the Snake Lord himself! Take it, damn you, and use it!"

Draco Sinister by Cassandra Claire

Despite the obvious differences, there's enough similarity in wording there to suggest strongly that the second passage has its origin in the first, especially as the 'use it!' doesn't really make good sense in the context of the second story. For those who haven't read the Draco Trilogy, what Draco is 'handing' back is a 'demon sword' obtained by Salazar Slytherin a thousand years before via a demonic bargain, and which must be returned; or alternatively the soul of someone with Slytherin blood -- in this case Harry -- will be claimed in payment^[4]. (Don't ask.)

This is the key plot element underpinning Draco Sinister, the one from which pretty much all the other events flow, and yet the idea (and in particular its resolution) appear to be taken from Tanith Lee. It's not the most commonly quoted passage when plagiarism in that story is discussed -- but to me it seems even more striking than the 'wizarding afterlife' passage largely copied from Pamela Dean, which in the context of Draco Sinister is actually part of a secondary plot arc along the way. These degrees of similarity are things that can reasonably be objected to.

But what would I know, anyway? Because the first sort of quoting is something I've done more than once, sometimes without bothering to give a citation, and the general opinion seems to be that even this sort of thing is a crime worthy of excommunication and ostracism from all polite society at the very least. That's all right though. As we've already established, I have no integrity. Example charges:

[personal name of some D&D creature, possibly a hag or ogre?]'s heart was in the right place, just above her stomach

Quote vaguely remembered from some article or other in
White Dwarf RPG magazine, sometime in the 1980s

"Really upset, she was, when Black nearly stabbed yeh, Ron. She's got her heart in the right place, Hermione has, an' you two not talkin' to her --"

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban by JK Rowling

I sigh. She's got her heart in the right place, Hermione has. Just behind her ribcage. I giggle again.

Whatever Gets You Through The Night by SnorkackCatcher

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She can sense when I'm beginning to get tired, sometimes before I realize it myself.

Irene is an absolute sweetheart, but I really don't need a five-year-old to look after me.

Meritorious Service of an Extraordinary Nature by After the Rain

As I try to get to sleep, I realise what I'm doing. Subconsciously, I'm hoping to burden the Boy who Lived with my troubles. Terrific.

I sigh. Maybe I should start weeping on the shoulders of five year olds next.

Whatever Gets You Through The Night by SnorkackCatcher

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

She went out, breathing flame quietly through her nostrils.

PG Wodehouse -- not sure where from, quoted in an 'Images'
section in Usborne's Wodehouse at Work to the End

He [Ron] stormed out of the kitchen, slamming the door behind him. Hermione sat there, quietly breathing fire, until a startled Harry and Ginny poked their heads around the kitchen door.

You Tell Her by SnorkackCatcher

None were cited -- in the first case especially, the nature and vagueness of the necessary citation would make me sound like a right prat. I think I'd rather be accused of plagiarism. I mention those three because (somewhat annoyingly) they drew comment as good lines, although I didn't then say anything in the replies to 'take credit' for them.

But then, another more substantial example:

O'Gregan looked at her with a pained expression. "Oh, the innocence of the young. Clearly you have never been introduced to my poor Norah, and may I say that you are a very lucky little lady for all that."

Tonks was fighting down giggles. "Was she really that bad, then?"

"Well, I don't know. I may be biased. Personally, I think she used to work with You-Know-Who. Giving him lessons on how to be more evil. But she upped and left me these five years ago, and I have never cried like I did that night. I was so happy I just couldn't keep it in."

Tonks looked at Rhiannon inquiringly, hoping for a woman's view. "Well, despite the fact that Mr Donnacha O'Gregan here has not just kissed the Blarney Stone but apparently snogged it with tongues, it's fair to say that Mrs Norah O'Gregan is indeed a nasty piece of work. She makes the Senior Undersecretary look like a fluffy little kitten." She looked archly at O'Gregan. "The poor boy's obviously very lucky with his girlfriend, who's a real sweetie."

"Ah yes, indeed she is," said the Irishman reverently. "Everyone, but everyone likes her. Well, maybe not actually everyone. My wife, now, she never did like her much."

Nymphadora Tonks and the Liquor of Jacmel by SnorkackCatcher

Three bolded sections there, all taken from jokes I remembered. Not a thing I do that often, but something I do occasionally and did here. The first and last I remember from stand-up routines by Emo Philips (adapted, obviously) and Jackie Mason, the middle one is just a general elaboration on the theme of the Blarney Stone that I remember hearing, probably more than once, but have no idea where. I probably should have namechecked the named comedians but didn't (more recent chapters have mentions in the footnotes for occasional references like this, so doubtless if I ever submit a revised chapter I'll add a note). The middle one -- I'm not even sure what to cite.

Does this matter? Well, as I've stated elsewhere Donnacha O'Gregan crystallised as a character as a result of considering giving him these jokes to say in an early chapter, and the minor subplot of his relationship with Rhiannon Davies evolved while I was writing this scene. So it had a knock-on effect -- albeit one that had little to do with the jokes themselves, it was their theme rather than their words that was suggestive. I personally regard it as a minor mistake rather than anything appalling, but feel free to saddle up your moral high horse and be appalled if you disagree. (Messrs Philips and Mason are welcome to sue, but are unlikely to get much out of it.)

Well damn, I guess I'd better start deleting stories and wearing a hair shirt, eh? And it's not just me who commits crimes against the soul^[5] of this kind, of course.

I remember being shocked -- shocked, I tell you!^[6] -- when an old anecdote supposedly about Mme de Gaulle appeared uncredited in a story by one of my favourite authors. And just the other day, the line "This didn't stop him from fooling around with her, of course. He was uneasy, not a bloody saint" appeared in a story by someone I know, just blatantly a rip-off of a line in Harry Potter and the City of Woe by cassieverte: "Ron looked forward to the day he could stick his face in her cleavage. He was trying to be nonjudgmental, not a monk."^[7]

And as for famous authors ... well! Is it only me who was horrified at how Agatha Christie just stole and reused the whole concept of Holmes and Watson when creating Poirot and Hastings? Are not the chambers in London where Poirot acts as a consulting detective just a thinly disguised version of 221b Baker Street? Is Hastings the military convalescent and dumb but loyal companion not a direct rip-off of Watson? Is the idea of Poirot's desire to retire to grow vegetable marrows not clearly stolen from Holmes the beekeeper? Is Murder on the Orient Express not blatantly inspired by the Lindbergh case? Why on earth does anybody ever read this plagiarist's books when she was obviously incapable of creating anything decent for herself? (Except of course she was. She grew into her writing and created her own style in the end. It may not have had the literary merit of an Austen or a Bronte or even a Doyle, but it worked and it sold books.)

All right, enough heavy-handed irony. The point is that ideas and phrases get used and reused, and similar concepts lead to similar phrasing, and it isn't wise or even practical to apply impossibly stringent standards. Or else 99.9% of all new fiction will be 'plagiarised' -- and the 'original' 0.01% won't be worth reading.

Finally, to relate all this back to the Cassandra Claire scandal: that BNF has done some very shady things in terms of wholesale copying of material from other sources, but 90% of that copying is merely the first type above -- it's the accumulated quantity of it that galls, not the individual acts themselves. The remaining 10% is classic plagiarism and that's what really crosses over from iffy but ignorable to actually unacceptable, especially as she should have had more sense about it. It merits harsh criticism and liberal helpings of mockery (and happily that's exactly what it's been getting). It doesn't mean she's incapable of writing anything herself -- certainly in the final story in the Trilogy the bits which appear to be entirely hers (from the fact that given their nature it would be hard to find anything to copy them from) show definite promise.

Of course, she's also parlayed her slipshod stuff into a degree of fame and some monetary advantage, been a complete and utter drama queen, and offended a lot of people in the process. This sticks in the craw, but so does the sheer level of gleeful sanctimoniousness being displayed by some at the bad_penny accounts, even those who are merely bystanders -- IMHO one perhaps more appropriate for the perp walk of an Enron executive than the deconstruction of a fandom copycat.

But then, this view is heresy, and even in these modern days of tolerance, heresy cannot be allowed to go unpunished.^[8]. Lead me off with gyves upon my wrists.^[9]

After all, I'm not claiming to be a man of integrity. I'm trying to be nonjudgmental, not a saint.

[/inchoate-rant]

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Notes:

[1] A reference to the title of Sellars and Yeatman's classic British history satire, 1066 And All That.

[2] Lyndon Johnson, I think. (Probably bowdlerised, from what I've heard of LBJ.)

[3] Examples taken from the bad_penny report.

[4] Come to think of it, wasn't that 'souls of descendants' business the sort of thing Moorcroft wrote about in his Elric stories? Anyone with better knowledge of fantasy books than I have care to comment?

[5] From the lyrics of (Get A) Grip (On Yourself) by the Stranglers: "Committed for insanity and for crimes against the soul, but the worst thing I ever did was play some rock'n'roll"

[6] This is sarcasm. It didn't really bother me.

[7] This is also sarcasm. I'm morally certain the author of the first line has never read Harry Potter and the City of Woe (unfortunately). And it wouldn't really bother me if she had. And for all I know both lines are riffs on some ur-line.

[8] From an article in ... oh bugger it, no-one reading this will have a clue where I remember the phrasing from. It's MINE MINE MINE I tell you!

[9] Eugene Aram? A Browning poem? PG Wodehouse characters frequently use the phrase without quotation marks.^[10]

[10] There is no note 10. I'm just messing around.

Comments

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

I have to say I agree with you on most of these counts. I read the bad_penny entries, and while the Pamela Dean section really resonated, and I recall finding the copious Buffy quotage a bit annoying during my read of Draco Dormiens (if I got through the other two, I don't remember), some of them were a bit far-fetched.

I think Cassandra Claire did plagiarise (while I, incidentally, do not believe Kaavya Viswanathan did, no matter what the Harvard Crimson and everyone else say), and that citation is important. But some of that really was just overkill. And, considering how much I quote from...well...everything, anything less seems to me to be hypocritical.

[dreamer-marie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm starting to get cold sweat about my fics, too (even though I've only written a few oneshots). I think I'm going to make a post on my LJ and cite all my sources. Oh dear. I'm just a French scientist, nobody ever told me anything about the fine point of plagiarism! plz don't sue!

[octobersnow.livejournal.com]

I do agree that some of the harrumphing is a bit much and that some of the things are reaching. I did leave a note over there that all sources should be cited, but I can see your point on things such as the middle NTLJ section.

My second point in the post over there was in response to someone not minding the blackadder quotes. I have never watched Blackadder (or most of the other shows mentioned) and wouldn't be able to pick out a BA quote to save my soul.

You're right about the reuse of phrases and I wouldn't mind the ones that become a part of common speech, such as your 'heart in the right place', 'harsh mistress' or 'breathing fire' examples. It's the more 'original' ones, like the 'wormskin rug', 'straight jacket', and 'cold-blooded [breakfast food]' bits, that I would like to see cited.

(Come to think of it on my NTLJ reread this weekend you mentioned an homage to "The Office", you...you integrity lacking ... person you, that I couldn't ID as I've never seen said show. I will admit I'm curious to which part you are refering to, but I'll be content with the assumption bad Maggie, no assumptions that it's not the key to the plot.)

Ok, this is getting tl;dr, so I'll shut up now.

[eccentricpirate.livejournal.com]

And then, you also need to consider works so well known that citing them ought not to be necessary. Shakespeare quotations, not some obscure line in Taming of the Shrew, mind, but Hamlet's "To be or not to be" soliloquy (and if I see one more person blatantly plagarize that, and have the person in question holding a skull I *\will be forced to commit murder in the name of Yorick), or Romeo's "What light through yonder window breaks". There are even some phrases that are so frequently plagarized that they seem to have become public domain ("Star cross'd lovers")

There are also those poor bastards among us (myself included) who are well read enough to unconciously quote things, or phrase them akin to something that we have read because it sounds right. It also usually destroys the continuity of a story if you have to keep looking at the footnotes/endnotes. Well, you could save them until the end, but many people just can't do that and follow what the notes are in reference to...

Besides that, plagarism is intellectual theft, so technically fanfiction is plagarism, as people are using the intellectual property of others as the basis for their own works. But you don't see these guys complaining about that now do you? I mean, a disclaimer at the beginning is all well and good, but people ought to cite everything that belongs to JKR. Things like Draco, his father, Dobby, and anything that is featured in the Harry Potter series really should be cited but...

I think I give up. The fuss over this just makes my brain hurt. At least Cassandra Claire's fics aren't written in leet (sorry, 1337) or something.

[snorkackcatcher]

while I, incidentally, do not believe Kaavya Viswanathan did, no matter what the Harvard Crimson and everyone else say)

Thank you! I didn't dare mention that, but I remember reading the quotes cited as evidence and thinking "out of two presumably 300-page books, is that it?" Same with the passages quoted for the Janet Dailey-Nora Roberts thing -- I looked at that and thought "come on, there has to be more, much more". An allegedly infringing line like "Tonight demanded all the skill and patience he possessed" is something I know I could easily have come up with myself off the top of my head without a second thought.

I have a bad habit of finding it hard to stop reading a story once I've got into it if it's even mildly interesting, so I did read all three parts of the DT (and of PoU, although I nearly gave up after the second part of that). Knowing the actual length and contents of the CC stories does give a certain perspective. She should have known better, but after all this presumably now does, and if the same problems hit her published novel it's her own fault.

Meanwhile, I really should go back over all my stuff and check for necessary citations. :(

[tree_and_leaf]

I've had a revelation! TS Eliot was a plagiarist! And he only cited sources once, and then incompletely!

I basically agree with you - I think the Bad Penny crowd are confusing two things. The lifting of lightly altered chunks from Pamela Dean is definitely unacceptable - and even when credited, I think should have been avoided.

On the other hand, riffing on other works is absolutely OK. CC's real sin there was literary - most of them were completely OOC for Draco - and there also seem to me to have been too many. But I, like you, honestly don't see why that sort of thing needs footnotes. Actually, I rather enjoy spotting allusions. (And like you, I have a terrible habit of subconscious quotation. I do it all the time in RL, too. I blame Dorothy L Sayers, actually).

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

Oh, I wish I had time to comment from my hols. Yes. I am amazed by how territorial fanfic writers can be about this subject...

[snorkackcatcher]

Yeah, I think I'm going to have to be careful about this now and check through just for CYA (the trouble is, there are about twenty stories, the majority posted in several places, so it's a long job that kind of takes the fun out of an activity that wasn't ever meant to be that serious -- I'm writing fanfic, not an academic paper).

I wonder if my computer programming background makes less inclined to be shocked by this? There's been a big debate about software patents where the US Patent Office was handing out patents on what seemed like every tiny little basic technique. The Amazon '1-Click' row being such an example, not to mention the patent on a technique for handling 2-digit years in a Y2K situation which was basically 'set a cut-off point such as 40, then treat all numbers higher than that as dates at the end of the 20th century, all lower numbers as dates at the start of the 21st' (!). This sort of thing annoys a lot of practical programmers, to whom the reuse of little coding riffs found elsewhere is considered not merely allowable, but common sense.

Oh well. Different area, different assumptions, different rules. I should be used to them by now without ranting. :)

[snorkackcatcher]

Hey, comment away. I didn't want to offend people, but I thought I might as well be blunt about it. It's just one of those cases where everybody (who commented) piled in, and I began to find it irritating. Hence my own tl;dr. :)

The nod to The Office was just that, a nod: it was where Percy refers to himself as 'Junior Assistant Head of Department' and Crouch says in annoyance 'Junior Assistant to the Head of Department' -- there's a character called Gareth in TO who fluffs up his job title in the same way to sound more important. It doesn't have any plot role, it's simply a little comment on Percy.

I'm the other way round with the quotes -- I spotted some Blackadder quotes (such as Godric Gryffindor winning battles by shouting, which was the Duke of Wellington in Blackadder; I remember it being quite fun to spot that) but not the Buffy ones. It was disappointing to realise that a lot of quotes I'd enjoyed (such as 'cold-blooded piece of toast') were originally from Buffy or elsewhere, and also distracting when reading later chapters as I was wondering which bits were quotes from elsewhere.

That's the only-hurting-yourself aspect of this sort of thing -- it distracts from reading the author's own stuff -- and why I've tended, as I've gone along and got into a sort of rhythm as far as fanfic writing is concerned, to (a) not do it that often, (b) cite it for the record where I do, even where I would really love to leave it there and see if anybody spots it -- such as the 'I drank what?' line in ch36 of NTLJ which itself was a little dig at an inaccurately cited CC/DT quote. :D

[snorkackcatcher]

Yeah, my head's spinning a bit too. :) It's the unconscious quoting bit that's the real kicker -- I'm sure the opening line I chose for one of my (as yet very incomplete) stories is a pastiche of something, but I can't think what, and when I asked on LJ no-one else could tell me either. But it just fits the story, so for the moment it's staying (even though it probably won't be the opening line).

[snorkackcatcher]

I think the Bad Penny crowd are confusing two things. The lifting of lightly altered chunks from Pamela Dean is definitely unacceptable - and even when credited, I think should have been avoided.

On the other hand, riffing on other works is absolutely OK. CC's real sin there was literary - most of them were completely OOC for Draco - and there also seem to me to have been too many.

Thank you -- that was basically exactly what I was trying to say, except succinctly put. :)

My vague mental picture of the pre-war literary set has them doing this sort of allusion thing all the time, except with serious literature instead of Buffy and Blackadder. But I could be way out on that.

[snorkackcatcher]

I know. It is possible to take it a bit too seriously. :)

[tree_and_leaf]

Of course, what seems to have really pissed people off is the fact that CC seems to have done rather well out of all of this, and that her defenders - and boon companions - have played the internet heavies for all it's worth....

[lls-mutant.livejournal.com]

Heh. This has been my favorite rant on the subject so far. (Not that I've paid much attention.)

I agree with what you're saying completely. I'm actually reminded of a Foxtrot cartoon where Jason builds a snowman a la Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes (it has a cannon ball going through it), and then builds a snow Calvin and Hobbes looking on. "This way it's an homage, not a rip-off" is the line.

I've done the same thing. I have one spot in Accidentally In Love where Remus is mocking Frank for having trouble with weddings and families, and Frank scowls and tells him, "laugh it up, fuzzball." If you CAN'T figure out where I took that from, you should have your geek membership revoked. And I played spot-the-Serenity reference in the chapter I'm working on. And I'm positive I've done others- those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head right now.

To be honest, I've never bothered to read the Draco trilogy because frankly, I find Draco incredibly dull and really, really, REALLY can't understand fandom's fascination with him. Why would I read an entire novel-length fic about him? I just always liked her not-so-secret diaries, and I've stolen lines from there for my reviews (although I assumed people would catch them), so I'm not going to stand on a soapbox and denounce her.

Anyway, I wonder where the line between "homage", "spoof", and blatant ripoff is drawn. If you look at a movie where they take a moment and clearly spoof another movie, word for word, do they have to cite? (I've never looked at the credits that closely.) Do they have to write to the studio and get permission? It's a totally different discussion from what's going on with Cassie Claire, I assume, but interesting nonetheless.

[lareinenoire.livejournal.com]

Meanwhile, I really should go back over all my stuff and check for necessary citations.

I should do that too. I know I had most of them in from the start (obsessive academic and all), but there might have been one or two that slipped through my fingers.

I think I did read the first two parts of the Draco Trilogy, because I recall the second one involving reincarnation of the Four Founders (which annoyed the living hell out of me, simply because the reincarnation involved three Gryffindors and a Slytherin, rather than people from all four Houses, but that's another thing). It was the third that I just couldn't get through.

Re: Kaavya Viswanathan, I actually read both the books involved, and quite honestly, while there were bits here and there that bore a resemblance to one another, both of them are, above all other things, formula novels. That's the point.

I just need to write a big rant entry on that whole case and how I think it's all sorts of nonsense and get it out of my system.

[snorkackcatcher]

Heh. Draco in the Trilogy isn't dull, possibly because he isn't Draco either, he's Spike (so I'm given to understand, never having watched Buffy). They are quite entertaining nonetheless, and the last one (probably the one she borrowed for the least as far as I can tell) has a pleasing sort of apocalyptic angst among the characters. I sort of felt it was something to read to see what people were recommending.

Regarding movies: actually, one thing I noted down (left out because the rant was getting too long) was a film called Vertical Limit which basically copies the plot of that classic French movie The Wages of Fear. If it noted that -- well, it was probably in very small lettering about three minutes into the credits when most of the audience had left the cinema, and I doubt many of the target audience for VL had seen TWOF. It even included a direct use of the cigaratte rolling 'signature shot' from TWOF (although it screwed it up -- in VL you see the events it refers to before that shot, which is much less effective). I'm sure it was intentional homage by the filmmakers, but it's pretty much the same as what CC did.

[snorkackcatcher]

True. I've had little contact with Heidi personally -- an occasional comment on the Nifflers list, perfectly mundane and everyday -- but she'd always struck me as acting a bit highly strung before.

[snorkackcatcher]

Heh. It would definitely be interesting to hear a view from someone who's actually read both books rather than just seen a few pull quotes.

[eccentricpirate.livejournal.com]

That's it, neither of us have any integrity, because we unconciously quote things. It's really hard not to though, especially when you went through highschool having teachers make you memorize poems, excerpts of short stories, and Shakespeare (who, by the way, was a plagarist in and of himself: Romeo and Juliet is stolen from a really old poem, an epic of some sort, and I believe a play by an Italian...). Is it plagarism if you plagarize the works of a plagarist?

I'll defend your opening line. And your integrity. To the Death! Or at least to the successive mocking of any flamers. Point them out, I'm ready for a fight. *makes war face*

[octobersnow.livejournal.com]

Granted it seems my views are a bit different than that of you two, but I would also defend this opening line for now. If after the fic was uploaded and someone said "Hey, you know the opening line sounds similiar to blahblahblah..." I would, IIYS, reply ("I thought I got it from somewhere - thanks for reminding me") and annotate if needed.

I actually think (like is said below) that is the main complaint against CC. She was alerted, but didn't correct the mistake (to the full extent many people thought was needed). I know I can sound like I'm taking this too seriously, but really this is just a debate I'm amusing myself with while avoiding actual work (talk about lack of integrity). I just tend to have an obnoxious air while writing or speaking about this kind of thing (not fpb obnoxious, thank goodness, but I'm not good with funny/lighness on the fly.;).

[octobersnow.livejournal.com]

See those kind of nods I don't mind 'cause they aren't word for word and short; not whole exchanges or scenes.

And after re-reading this post again I think I should clarify which of your examples would piss me off. Only one really and it is the Tanith Lee/CC comparison. I've already addressed the harsh mistress, heart in right place (the variant I remember is actually 'in his chest'), and breathing fire as part of the common language. To this list I would include the 'not a monk/saint', and 'given __ advice/lessons on how to ___' both of which I think have been beaten to death as jokes. (I know you have a source for the second one, but for me it's a lot like the second NTLJ example.)

The five-year-old one I think is a nod much like your Office one only to a t rain.

The last one, Hmm, don't know. Might be borderline. It does remind me of a joke I remember from Dirty Dancing *hides face in shame* ~quote "Found a girl just like my mother. Acts like her, dresses like her. Guess what? My father doesn't like her." I only remember it because it is a groan inducing bad joke (and probably taken from somewhere else too). But your quote seems like a very uninspired joke as well, so *shrug*.

As for the "I drank what?" bit I found that not convincing for the CC case as I'm pretty sure the joke is older than 'Real Genius', but correct me if I'm wrong. (However, I might bet that is where she heard the line as she seems to use other RG quotes.) I have a tendency to talk out of my ass and subsequently look like one on occasion, so correction is much appreciated.

I seem to have tl;dr syndrome today.

I do think CC's OW deserves a chance and people should not be decrying it yet (or doing stupid stuff like informing the publisher - unless Pamela Dean or the like was the one to make the move.) I wasn't involved in fandom at the time, don't write fanfic, and never read the DT, so in all fairness I should keep my mouth shut, but for some reason I'm being a dumbass today. (But I must admit some of the WTFery? (http://rap541.livejournal.com/52652.html) was too tempting not to screencap.)

[eccentricpirate.livejournal.com]

I too am using this to avoid work, though my work is of the non-essential, personal kind. I agree that if you use a great deal of content from other places, you ought to at least add them into the disclaimer. I have a general disclaimer that often says "Much of this belongs to *insert fandom creator here* and I may have gotten quotes or ideas from other places", and if I have blatantly ripped someone off, with my knowledge, I would note that I got part of it from them. If I stole something from someone unintentionally, I would probably throw a note up there when notified of it, something along the lines of "I've been told this has similarities to/was stolen from *whatever* but I did not do it intentionally" or something. I do agree that you should give credit where it is due, definately- I've had too many people rip off my ideas to think otherwise. I even had a fight about plagarism with a prof at my university, because one of the guys I worked with basically stole my paper. I was not impressed.

I don't find you obnoxious, though I can be a little... let's go with assertive regarding my viewpoints, and my "biting wit" tends to become a weapon if people start to irritate me. Trust me, you don't have an obnoxious air (at least not here) especially not compared to some on the intarwebs...

I just think that this is a bit of a big deal for something like that, ya know? Of course if she would just do the sensible thing and say that she may have gotten ideas or quotes from other sources then this wouldn't be a problem at all.

[octobersnow.livejournal.com]

I do kinda find it funny how seriously people are taking it, but again I wasn't in the fandom at the time. Just seems like a good lesson/discussion piece.

I'm glad I'm not obnoxious and I find biting wit fun. I usually try and use some myself, but it seems to have fled for the hills recently. ;)

I remember when 40-50% of my college level drama class plagiarised for a play analysis (I think it was "Waiting for Godot"?) People seem to be taking this, CC, more seriously than that was taken. Granted I wasn't one of the offenders so I don't know how the dressing downs went. Though I do remember my TA saying "I was reading an article in X (which I don't remember) journal and thought 'Hey, I've read this before and I gave it a C!'" The end solution was everyone who didn't cheat got As and everyone else got a graded system of punishments because they couldn't expel almost 60+ people under the 'no tolerance' rule. It ranged from Expel (2 or 3 I think), Fail Course, Fail Paper, and Rewrite for 1/2 credit. I was appalled, but my main reaction was actually relief because I got an A on a work if graded fairly probably would've gotten a C or B. (Thanks idiots:) I'm actually glad plagiarism is getting discussed (here and elsewhere) because obviously some places/parents/teachers fail to teach people about it properly.

I always found the 'Don't copy straight out of the Encyclopaedia, move the words around first' manner of teaching rather funny. (Yes, I was actually told this by a teacher. Whereas, I thought the idea was read, absorb, understand and then put into own words.) This is mostly academic/scientific writing theory because that's what I do and royally stink at the fiction writing. (Though I may need to get better consdering the way science has been heading. Just Kidding! I find fraud of that sort totally reprehensible.)

Ok, really they need to find a cure for the tl;dr 'cause I got it bad.

[snorkackcatcher]

I might just rewrite the line -- it's here if you recognise it by any chance -- it just seems to fit the character (Luna's dad) and the story (Rita getting into trouble all unsuspecting). It's stopped at about a quarter to a third done anyway.

To be honest, I'm not sure CC could correct the mistake by adding a disclaimer -- she'd need to rewrite the scene.

[snorkackcatcher]

The expulsion rule always seems rather harsh -- but then I'm used to a system where coursework isn't actually that important, the thing that counts for the marks is the final exam (and cheating on that would get you dumped on from a great height). I do remember one girl being hauled over the coals for copying project wotk when I was doing my computer science degree, but she wasn't chucked out for it.

[eccentricpirate.livejournal.com]

Ha ha, look, we could spend an hour together and write a novel! I love it when because someone else is an idiot, you benefit. Plagarism should be discussed, I remember my Mum read an essay I did and asked me where I found the information. I had copied it directly out of the book, and she explained to me that doing so was wrong, and why it was wrong. Though, I think that teaching students how to actually read and write is more important, and they don't even seem to do that in a lot of schools now. (I suppose plagarism could be under the writing heading, but I am more focused on basic grammar and spelling/how to write a sentence). I think the reason I find it so ridiculous to fuss this much over things like this is that it is, in fact, fanfiction, and the majority was plagarized, as it were, from published works, and there is a lot of really small stuff that they are fussing over. I accidently plagarized a few things from novels that my English prof had read, and he asked me how I chose the phrasing etc. and when I realized what I had done he laughed at me, and told me to try to quote things and cite them next time. Of course this is the English prof who noticed a quote from a (high rated slash) fanfic I had read... and commented that he had read the same fic, and didn't I like that author. I was more than a little scared at that point. Amused, but scared... It just doesn't seem as important to me as the PhDs who write a paper that has blatent errors so that their friends can write a paper correcting those errors and introducing new ones, and so on and so forth, so they can raise the citations of their papers. That is a true crime, because they affect other people in a negative way by doing that where a fanfic wouldn't. Alright, I am going to stop commenting, I think, or we will fill the world with writing....

[octobersnow.livejournal.com]

I rememeber the orignal post where you were asking about that and no I don't recognize it.

And you are right about CC needing to rewrite those scenes (and in the case of the bit you mentioned a good deal of the plot?)

[snorkackcatcher]

Heh. AFAIR Shakespeare took his history direct from Holinshed.

The line is here if you have any thoughts on it. That Rita fic has been a real pain. It's vaguely like Hold Page One! in basic concept (Rita investigating Voldemort's past), but goes off in a very different direction and is nothing much like it in detail. But it seemed the 'natural' way to go when I drew Rita and Merope in a character roulette, and I thought of a bunch of ideas for it. Eventually I just Niffled Hold Page One! (because it seemed unfair not to do so just because I had a plot bunny in the same general area) and put mine on hold.

[eccentricpirate.livejournal.com]

See, I am an English and History major, (yay for the double major) so if you steal someone else's writing, they hand you your ass on a plate, and ask you very politely to get the hell out of the institution....

[octobersnow.livejournal.com]

I so want to friend you now... Is that ok with you?

[eccentricpirate.livejournal.com]

Of course! But only if I can friend you back.

[eccentricpirate.livejournal.com]

But if it is just a line or two, that wouldn't be a huge deal. I don't mind doing rewrites if I appear to have stolen something from someone, though I do appreciate people who point it out nicely, as a "Umm... beg your pardon, but did you happen to notice that you absconded with this?" instead of a "HEY! You suck you stole this you theif you can't think of anything original" etc. etc. Of course, CC doesn't seem to wish to rewrite or anything so...

And that sounds like something he would say, at least judging by Luna's speech patterns.

[octobersnow.livejournal.com]

Yes, of course! NO! I only friend for nefarious purposes and a mutual friending would defeat said purpose! ;) (And, yes, I overuse the winking smiley.)

[snorkackcatcher]

Heh. Arts people had that type of assessment method at Exeter too, as far as I know.

One story I heard while I was there, which might just be the ideal way of getting round the citation problem, is not to write anything at all -- a student hadn't done the essay, but insisted to the tutor concerned that they'd handed it in, and that the tutor must have lost it. Said tutor was sufficiently disorganised to be unsure and so wrote down a good 2:1 mark for the student without them actually doing anything at all. :D

[snorkackcatcher]

Actually, if the jokes sound like common ones, that's reassuring. (It does sound a bit lame on reflection. Maybe it was the way Mason told it. :D)

And the thing you screencapped? Yeah, 'WTF?' sounds like the only appropriate response. :)

[octobersnow.livejournal.com]

Just want to ask persmission to link this in a post no one will really ever see because I have a tiny, tiny flist

[snorkackcatcher]

Sure -- it's publicly posted, anyway. :)

[redcoast.livejournal.com]

Hi. I'm here from octobersnow's journal.

I might be agreeing with you ... somewhat. The fact that you frequently quote without citing doesn't make it right, of course. I used to, but now I feel bad about it.

Yes, some of the bad_penny examples were either really stretching it or just plain wrong, BUT there are a couple of points to be made. One is that now that Cassandra Claire has shown that she's willing to plagiarize, no one can be sure that the rest of her fic is her own work. She's not trustworthy anymore. Hence the paranoia in the comments: "Wait a minute, have I read that before? Isn't that familiar? Is the rest of the passage plagiarism?" Which is a natural human reaction, in my opinion.

Also, you mentioned that you've never watched Buffy. That might be part of it.

It's NOT an homage to Buffy when someone who has never watched Buffy can't tell the Buffy lines from the CC lines. (Buffy Buffy Buffy. What a weird word.) For example, CC cites the following:

" Sirius brandished the book in the air. "Demons, Demons, Demons - what a title." "It´s a book about demons. What would you call it?" -- Angel.

Okay, that is from Angel, but more to the point, so is the punchline: "It´s a book about demons. What would you call it?"

"The Book of Demons?" Sirius suggested, flicking idly through the pages.

"A name rife with single entendre."

If you don't know the show, you will assume that Cassandra Claire wrote the last line. That's just wrong. Maybe it irritates me as a Buffy fan more than it would a non-fan.

I don't think plagiarism is so horrible a crime to commit, mostly because immitation is a stage that all young writers go through. I just don't trust Cassandra Claire anymore, and I never want to read her fics, because I don't see any signs that she's tried to change.

(I did try to read the Draco trilogy. I gave up on the first chapter, when Draco was wearing a Rolex. Bleh.)

Ultimately, of course, what is acceptable and what is not acceptable will be determined by public opinion.

Actually, here's a good post on allusion. (http://antennapedia.livejournal.com/56751.html) Oh, and I'm Google-bombing Cassie Claire; want to join in?

[ladyrelaynie.livejournal.com]

If I'm going to be tl;dr against my will and purpose, could someone please tell me what it means?

~Relaynie

[snorkackcatcher]

I only found out a few weeks ago myself. It's an internet/fannish abbreviation for 'too long; didn't read'. octobersnow was jokingly referring to her own comment, I believe.

That being said, the argument 'CC shouldn't be criticised like this because she's a woman' was extraordinarily feeble.

[snorkackcatcher]

I don't frequently quote without citing now (at least not intentionally) but I have done occasionally, and am not too bothered by it. As you say, imitation is a stage -- I eventually decided it tended to weaken what I was writing rather than strengthen it, unless the line was merely there as a sort of in-joke. (Example: in one mostly light-hearted scene I had a character say 'Lions and tigers and bears?' -- Wizard of Oz -- and Tonks referring to something as 'hippoing along' -- a plug for a_t_rain's True Confessions of a Teenage Multimagus. Neither were important for anything other than the throwaway in-joke, both were footnoted -- although I'm not sure the first really needed to be, as half the fun is spotting that sort of thing.)

As I've said, I found it disappointing to discover how many of the memorable DT lines weren't by CC, and it makes the DT considerably weaker, although WAF it's still quite an entertaining yarn. But like tree_and_leaf said, that's more a literary crime than a moral one.

But as you say, public opinion tends to be key in drawing the lines of acceptability.

As for the Googlebombing -- if you mean trying to get links to the bad_penny piece to the top of the list when people search for 'Cassandra Claire', then no. I don't have a personal grudge against CC, don't think it's worth doing, and find the idea rather distasteful, actually.

[ladyrelaynie.livejournal.com]

It was, I agree. That wasn't what I was trying to say, but it appears it's been taken that way. I was actually trying to say much of what you said in your post, but in a way that person would understand. Thank you for being nice about it.

[cassieverte.livejournal.com]

I read your post before I left for the beach. I wanted to comment, but couldn’t think of anything intelligent to add to your thoughts. Now you have so many comments I'm overwhelmed. This might be a little late, but now I have time to write and thought I would.

Let me preface with this: people are very committed to Harry Potter and the fandom. That’s why the recent fandom scandals have gotten such a volatile reaction. Those of us less committed to the “sacredness” of both cannon and certain fanfics are proportionately less moved (either way) by a little line-flinching. For better or worse though, this mammoth fandom community has grown out of our combined interests and enjoyments.

In general (not here) these scandals – I used the term liberally – are less of a discussion about literary integrity and more the forceful shaping of a HP fandom dogma. How much of a fanfic needs to be original for it to not be plagiarism? How much liberty can a fandom participant take while representing his/herself? Is it acceptable for anyone to profit off fanfic, be it collecting money for charity, profit or er… theft reimbursement? (Obviously, it’s illegal to be actually compensated for writing a fanfic.)

I’m not going to try an answer these question because I don’t think I’m qualified too. I don’t really participate in fandom outside my own little circle. I do know that I don’t like the cat-fight-esque quality to all this. It turns off many fandom participants, including me. I don’t like the idea of anyone harassing me over fanfic, which is something I do for fun in my free time. For me, fanfic is a fling. For some of those hardcore fans, it’s more like they’re one true love. I doubt I would ever have a problem, as I keep mostly to myself. It stills make me very unease.

That being said, here’s a funny anecdote. After I read your post I started to think about lines and/or plot points I may have derived from elsewhere. My fanfics are very long and involved. I have no doubt I’ve done a lot of this (more in the early days of my DF than anything else). But, you know, it happens. Ideas or phrases get into your head and you can’t always remember what inspired them. I doubt there is a HP fanfic writer that hasn’t used the phrase “crooked nose” in conjunction to half-moon spectacles. After I reread NTLJ I used the phrase “bee in my bonnet” twice that week. My Mom gave me some very weird looks.

I was pretty secure that I had never out right copied anyone else’s work – at least nothing that I would consider plagiarism. I didn’t steal my plot, when my work was beta-ed I credited their efforts, when someone helped me plot out a London chase scene I made sure to cite that as well. I admit that my characterizations are probably very much influenced by other fanfic writers, but I didn’t steal their characters.

Any way, I was feeling pretty confident about myself as fanfic writer with integrity. I was sitting on my computer typing with the TV running in the backround. Carrie Bradshaw was talking with her girlfriends on Sex in the City and Whoops! That last line sounded a bit familiar. Sure enough, I open up the chapter file for City of Woe (my fanfic) and low and behold the same line.

In my story the line makes perfect sense. It has an organic feel to it, like it grew from the text. Any copying was unintended. The wording and circumstances/usage are totally different, but it’s the same gist. It’s recognizable, if not outstanding or obvious. What then is the verdict? Have I plagiarized? Do I need a citation? Who stole the cookie from the cookie jar? Am I crazy for having a Sex in the City line in a Harry Potter fanfic? Hmmm…

[snorkackcatcher]

No problem. :)

[snorkackcatcher]

Heh. The way COW is going, Sex in the City lines would fit right in. It sounds like you could not bother to cite if you didn't want to. Dare I ask what the line is or would that count as an extra preview paragraph? :)

DF/COW probably gain strength from you not being too deeply involved in other areas of fandom. The plot and charactisations are quite unusual (especially for a story that's at least nominally H/Hr) and I can't think of anything that appears taken from elsewhere (other than general themes such as wandless magic and so on). But the Draco trilogy is just something that took on a momentum of its own, almost separate from the original HP books. I still rather like it (well, I suppose Draco Veritas more than the other two) and I suppose because of that I find it harder to be condemnatory than someone who hasn't read it.

Oh, and is 'bee in my bonnet' a very English phrase then? I just thought it was a bit old-fashioned.

[cassieverte.livejournal.com]

I really like DT, especially the second one. The second one is much better than the first and I got to read that straight through, which always makes it more enjoyable. I have no problem if some parts of the plot are borrowed from published works. As long as your not getting paid for it; that’s a horse of a different color (1).

“Bee in my bonnet” is very old fashioned, but I’ve heard it before NTLJ. It’s not something I would usually say, especially not repeatedly. It’s just funny how certain phrases slip into your mind. When ever I hang out with my friend L the word “dude” reenters my vocabulary. Another friend called me out on it and I said, “Sorry, been around L too much.” She was like, “Yeah, I figured.”

I actually was going to share the lines to get your opinion on them, but I decided not to because they are a little spoilerish. It’s one of those things you know is coming eventually, though, so what the hell? This actually isn’t part of the next chapter, but from chapter ten.

The humorous S&C (paraphrased) quote:
Carrie: He said he didn’t want to get back together, but his eyes and actions said he did.
Miranda: Carrie, that’s the defense taken by date rapists.

The serious CoW quote (names changed to protect the guilty):
Jack: I never touched you when you didn’t want it. Don’t even bother denying, Diane. I was in your head.”
Diane: “Oh, right. I wanted it. You could see it in my eyes; my body was giving you all the right signs. Yeah, you know what that is, Jack? The defense taken by date rapists!”

So, did I steal a line or a phrase? You decide.

Cassie

(1) As quoted in “The Wizard of Oz,” 1939

PS: Don’t judge Jack too much on this line. There’s a lot of stuff going on by Chapter 10.

[snorkackcatcher]

Well, it certainly fits in the context of what, er, Jack and Diane were doing in ch8 (which I really must review, apologies). I'm not entirely sure the actual line that's the same as SATC fits as something Diane would say, her being a witch and all that -- the phrase does sound a bit RLish, although there's no reason the same sort of thing shouldn't be known in the wizarding world (especially given the nastier spells and potions around -- I'm sure there are plenty of fics that explore this).