OK, R/T shippers, enlighten me please ...

[snorkackcatcher]

A week or so ago, maple_clef posted an essay on feminism in HP fandom post-HBP. As tends to happen, many of the responses started discussing shipping matters, and in particular Remus/Tonks, and several known reasonable people (including fernwithy and the author herself) surprised me by confidently claiming that there was discernable setup for the ship in OotP.



The suggestion was that there were enough hints there in OotP for it to be a reasonable guess that it would happen, and that this interpretation was validated by the fact that the ship actually happened in HBP. Despite the fact that Remus/Tonks is a pairing I liked even before HBP, I'm not entirely convinced by this ...

Now as far as I can see, there was no direct setup whatsoever. Zero. None at all. In fact, I'd go further and say that surely there couldn't have been anything intended as direct setup in OotP -- because JKR was planning to use the romance as a red herring in the next book, and thus couldn't afford to give hints two years in advance. And that interview in which she said how amazed she was that somebody had thought of it certainly didn't sound like she expected anyone to guess based on OotP, and so perhaps was thinking that she hadn't actually given any substantial clues.

By "direct setup," incidentally, I means something like the butterflies in Harry's stomach when he first sees Cho, or Fleur gazing at Bill with interest coupled with the twins' sniggering remark about private lessons, or of course the many Ron/Hermione anvils that came crashing down. In other words, something clear cut that hints at actual romantic interest rather than simple friendship. There were even a few places where a dog (or wolf!) could have barked in the night but didn't -- e.g. the complete lack of Remus-Tonks interaction during the Department of Mysteries fight. Easily explicable if JKR was deliberately avoiding portraying them as showing more concern for each other than just friendship, a sticking point otherwise.

I'm happily prepared to concede that there was indirect setup written in -- by which I mean the fairly minimal basics of showing them interacting in a friendly manner that wasn't incompatible with a possible romance, because that had to be there if the end result was to seem at all plausible. But that sort of thing could apply to many potential pairings -- hell, Wolfstar fans can point to many more moments of that type. And if it's affectionate banter you want, Moody/Tonks has far more examples, if emotional support, step forward Remus/Molly!

Once we get into HBP, then yes there are direct setup moments -- the mention that Remus was trying to talk her round, her changed Patronus, Remus taking his time to answer Harry's question about it, etc. But because the romance is a red herring plot point they're still quite small hints, not giveaways like the Harry/Cho or Bill/Fleur moments mentioned above. My feeling is that if the intended setup in HBP is so minor, anything in OotP will have been even more so; and so even when you know the pairing happens later on, it surely doesn't mean that the OotP interactions were intended to show anything more than compatibility -- they're setup in the sense that they lay some of the groundwork, but they're not actually hints.

I'll admit that I never saw this one coming -- before HBP, I felt it was a ship that worked nicely in fanon based on the good personality fit, but for which there was no real evidence in OotP other than that, and one which had probably never crossed JKR's mind. I was wrong about the latter -- I'm still not quite sure I was wrong about the former.

So, am I just being over-picky, or am I missing something obvious here?

Comments

[dharmavati.livejournal.com]

Even as a pre-HBP R/T shipper, I don't think there was any explicit evidence of the ship in OoTP. There was definite playful cameraderie but no romance. The bare setup of the ship was there (they obviously enjoyed each other's company within the Order) but there is no true shippyness. At least in my interpretation.

A somewhat wishy-washy answer :D

[maple-clef.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I suppose it was mainly a very strong feeling that there was chemistry between the two of them from her introductory scene. Clearly, that's sloppy in terms of an explanation - and I'd not dream of saying it was explicit evidence. But when I was reading it, I did get that impression.

It's tricky trying to second-guess to what extent JKR may/may not have included setup in light of the interview. Given that there needed to be ambiguity for the red herring plotline to work, she couldn't really have done any "direct setup" without shooting herself in the foot. Whether or not she provided setup in other ways is the point, I imagine...

Evidence. Well, I suppose what I was thinking of when I was thinking about essays included this R/T manifesto by violet_quill, although it only briefly touches on the structural parallels, which is what I think fernwithy would have been referring to in terms of setup. I know Fern's written more about the latter... okay, here's a recent post on her LJ which briefly outlines what made them on of her OTPs in fandom.

they're setup in the sense that they lay some of the groundwork, but they're not actually hints

Well, yes! I agree, but the way JKR sets things up is arguably a fairly good suggestion of things to come. I don't think anyone who claims to have seen R/T in book 5 would claim there were anvil-sized hints, but rather that they got a strong impression from the setup and the groundwork, knowing how JKR tends to operate. The so-called subtext, I guess, which is seemingly the Holy Grail of fandom!

And I don't really like trying to argue on grounds of subtext, because it's messy, but I make an exception for its use in the case of R/T because it was the means by which Wolfstar tended to dismiss anything wrt Remus other than their OTP! The problem with citing subtext as evidence as it's fairly wanky: essentially, there's a big element of "I can 'read JKR' better than (you/they/anyone who doesn't share MY opinion) can", and (as well as being uncomfortable with that philosophy) I wouldn't presume to say I have some sort of direct line to the author.

But the other problem is that the main source of difference within fandom IS how people extrapolate canon via what they second-guess through their reading of authorial intention (whether implied or structural or whatever). So while I actually do agree with you that on a textual level there's a lack of substantial clues and direct evidence (and also that they're unlikely to be there given the red-herring plotline in HBP), there is perhaps a little to be said for subtext ;)

Wow, I sound quite shippy, and I'm not satisfied I've tackled this in a coherent way. I think the_portkey, fernwithy and others who I've heard speak about R/T might do better, coming at the problem with a better understanding of writing as a craft than I have.

[snorkackcatcher]

Yeah -- that sounds like basically what I was trying to say, only much more succintly put. :)

Re: A somewhat wishy-washy answer :D

[snorkackcatcher]

Fair enough -- I was probably a bit forthright to make the point. I think my general point was that a lot of the supposed setup for ships isn't actually a romantic moment for the characters -- even if it works on the literary level (Harry rescuing Ginny from the Chamber, for example). In that sense I imagine JKR would have to be saying something like "yes, X and Y will get together later, but they don't know that yet so I'll have to be careful not to write it like that".

I suppose that like you say, I'm rather suspicious of drawing parallels from subtext, even for a pairing like Remus/Tonks that we know happens later on, because it's easy to find ones that are probably not intended as such. I mean, for a joke/plot point I put together a string of parallels between Sirius and Sturgis Podmore, but I very much doubt that they were intended! (Same for Hermione and Lavender, although those may have been.)

I suppose it's that character foreshadowing vs structural foreshadowing thing again; JKR can put in as many general parallels as she wants (such as fernwithy's point about the similar ways Remus and Tonks first appear in the books), but has to be sparing with the shippy hints until it means something to the characters -- e.g. the way Ron and Hermione develop, not to mention Harry and Ginny. (After all, one of the main points of these pairings, especially the latter, is that they have to get to a point where they're right for each other -- so I'd say many of the interactions in the earlier books are there to show that they aren't right, rather than that they are.)

Oh well, I seem to be rambling again (and I was probably half-asleep when I wrote the original post, so was rambling there as well!). :)

Re: A somewhat wishy-washy answer :D

[maple-clef.livejournal.com]

I actually didn't think you were being overly forthright, to be honest - it was a good point you were making.

even for a pairing like Remus/Tonks that we know happens later on, because it's easy to find ones that are probably not intended as such

This is true...

I'm probably the laziest 'shipper' ever, in that I don't really have any desire to "convert" unbelievers whatsoever, so I've never really felt the need to give much thought before about how I came to the conclusions I did (or more importantly, how they can be supported). I used to think I could never take fandom seriously enough to write meta, though, so I guess things have changed - for better or worse, I'm not sure ;)

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

Well, direct setup as you describe couldn't be there, as we're not in either of their points of view and Harry isn't interested in the subject.

It would hardly be a good red herring if there were no set up going in, though. It's not fair if it's not set up.

No R/Ter argued that it was inevitable from the setup in OotP. I doubt anyone was more floored than we were that Rowling actually dared to do it--I figured she'd end up with Remus in a monastery to avoid angering Wolfstar shippers.

Nevertheless, we argued from OotP that there was a strong potential for the ship based on their interactions. We'd been arguing it for two years. The banter, the parallel introductions (light-bearers speaking into the darkness from Harry's POV), the patched clothing, the frequent assignments together, the fact that they were on assignments together frequently and speaking at breakfast. We said, "These are signs we can use for a ship." Now, Molly/Remus shippers could use boggart scene or Christmas mornign. Wolfstar people could use the gift. If either Wolfstar or Molly/Remus had turned out to be the case, then that side would have been right, and the others would have been wrong. As it turned out, the R/Ters were right, and the signs we saw were signs of a ship. The story exists simultaneously, even though it was released serially, and subsequent events provide the meaning for previous actions.

Hmm. How to put it? Hagrid showed up in chapter one of PS/SS with Sirius's motorcycle. Let's say that after book one, there was a big debate about who Sirius Black was. One side said that he was a friend of Harry's parents, another said he was a Ministry official who was tracking the killer, and a third said he was the killer but Hagrid didn't know it. You could make valid points for any one of those things. But when PoA came out, we learned the truth, and we know why he went to the house and what happened with the motorcycle. The arguments in favor of the Ministry theory or the killer theory, which previously had merit, have been debunked by canon, but the one in which he's the Potters' friend is the one that was true all along.

[snorkackcatcher]

Hi Fern - thanks for commenting, and my apologies that I didn't get back to you with a reply before now!

I agree that the 'story exists simultaneously, even though it was released serially' -- and that was a good analogy about Sirius in PS./SS. I don't think on reflection our points are wildly different (as I said above, I may have been a bit forthright in the original post just for emphasis).

When I asked 'where did R/Ters see setup?' I suppose I was thinking more of direct clues, and hence using the word in a slightly different way -- because I was never able to see anything more than the personality fit as a reason for shipping R/T before HBP came out. (And I too expected her to leave him single in the series, although I didn't think Wolfstar was on her radar any more than Wotcher Wolvie was!)

I think some direct (primary?) setup could theoretically have been there in OotP -- e.g. Harry could have half-noticed the two of them gently flirting while he was thinking about something else, the way he noticed Fleur appraising Bill in passing -- it was just that in practice it couldn't be because of the forthcoming plot role of the ship. Although even then it's not entirely unfair for something plot-related to come out of the blue? There's little that you could point at to suggest Lavender's interest in Ron before HBP (although I tried, for a story :D).

I'm a little cautious about interpreting structural signs, mind you, even after we know how the plot plays out, because I think it's easy to read things as signs which weren't intended as such by the author? The banter and the fact that they were frequently on assignments together is in retrospect what you might call secondary setup, the parallel introductions is an interesting idea and could well have been intended as what you might call structural setup, but the patched clothing is I suspect 'just a cigar'!

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

I think some direct (primary?) setup could theoretically have been there in OotP -- e.g. Harry could have half-noticed the two of them gently flirting while he was thinking about something else, the way he noticed Fleur appraising Bill in passing -- it was just that in practice it couldn't be because of the forthcoming plot role of the ship. Although even then it's not entirely unfair for something plot-related to come out of the blue?

But it would be unfair for something plot-related to come out of the blue--she has to play fair, and she did. She put in signs that could have been (and were) interpreted differently, but which ultimately led to what the truth was. The ship didn't come from out of the blue. A lot of people saw the potential for it.

Quite a lot of the things we saw (the banter, the togetherness, etc) could conceivably be interpreted as light flirting, but for Harry to notice that would be horribly OOC. He might notice things about his immediate friends, but thinking about the adults in his life flirting with one another? That's something else altogether. Harry would either see it directly ("Whoa... Tonks and Lupin were kissing under the mistletoe!") or pay no attention at all. Even in HBP, when he's spent quite a lot of time looking at the issue of Merope Gaunt's love affair, he's thinking about his own feelings, and he's noticing that Ron and Hermione are finally getting somewhere, it takes him forever to come up with the notion that Tonks might be in love with someone. She may be younger than Bill, but he associates her with arriving with the adult Order of the Phoenix, not with being the brother of a friend of his, and he therefore pretty much sees her asexually. That goes double for Lupin, who's both a friend of his parents and his teacher. I don't think he'd have some theoretical objection, but it had no chance of being a place his mind would go on its own.

So basically, what you have to deal with is the Harry-filter, and the Harry-filter pretty much ignores adult flirtations even if they're right in front of him, unless the adult specifically lets him know what's going on (as with Hagrid and Madame Maxime) or something unambiguous happens in his direct line of sight. Other than that, you'll only ever have structural clues and innocuous mentions of people being together. Probably the biggest Harry-stated clue was the use of the word "again" when they brought him to the Hogwarts Express at Christmas, as it notes that their pairing is a repeat performance of the September trip.

I think it may have been a mistake to do it as a red herring, but I don't think JKR had any idea how much of a fandom fight there was over Remus's sex life, so she just decided to use it as one of the mysterious things in HBP rather simply stating outright that they were together, but having problems. But even if she had been direct, I think we'd still be seeing the "out of the blue," because the clues that are there in OotP aren't recognized. And what if, in OotP, she'd flat out had them kiss under the mistletoe during the Christmas sequence? Well... I'd probably be going, "Lupin's kissing his girlfriend in front of his students? Lupin?" :p More to the point, then it would definitely get cries of "Sexist!" since she would be seen only as "Lupin's girlfriend" instead of as a character who becomes Lupin's girlfriend.

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

I think it's easy to read things as signs which weren't intended as such by the author?

I guess the thing is, it doesn't matter whether or not it was originally intended. I think it was--there's just a smidge too much of it for it to strike me as accidental--but whether it was or not, it's now true, and becomes retroactively true because the author has interpreted those actions through later canon to mean what it now means. To use the Sirius example, she might have just made up a name out of the blue and not thought twice about it when she wrote the flying motorcycle scene, but the character he turns out to be is still the character he was that night.

[snorkackcatcher]

Quite a lot of the things we saw (the banter, the togetherness, etc) could conceivably be interpreted as light flirting, but for Harry to notice that would be horribly OOC. He might notice things about his immediate friends, but thinking about the adults in his life flirting with one another?

Hmm -- the Harry-filter is definitely a possible explanation, but you know I'm not sure I agree that Harry's quite as oblivious about these things as we fans sometimes make him out to be? He picks up pretty much right away on Hagrid and Maxime, and Bill and Fleur, and even (albeit jokingly) Filch and Pince, not to mention Ron and Hermione. It's just his own love life he has trouble working out. :)

I suppose he might have had difficulty getting over the mental hurdle of the age gap between Remus and Tonks, but that didn't stop him thinking in terms of Sirius and Tonks, which had the cousins obstacle as well (not as major a taboo over here as I understand it is in parts of the USA, but often regarded as a bit iffy nevertheless). And (for me, anyway) her behaviour in HBP wasn't such as to immediately make me think "she's in love" -- it was more like "she's under Imperius," and still feels a bit like that even on a re-read. (That was the idea JKR was trying to push, presumably, but I do think the execution was a bit overcooked.)

Actually, this has had me looking back over OotP (since I've just got a paperback copy as replacement for the now-tatty original hardback!) and although Remus and Tonks were present in the same scenes quite often, I was mildly surprised to see that they were rarely actually talking to each other instead of someone else present. So to be honest, I think I'll stick with my claim that we don't really see them doing much that could be interpreted as flirting?

It's a pity, because it was one of my favourite pairings even before HBP, and I'd rather like to know the details of how it all happened! (I'm guessing one big reason it's offscreen is that it's supposed to have started in earnest in that long gap between Harry going back to school for the New Year and the DoM fight, when basically we see and hear almost nothing of what the Order are up to.) We might get a bit more information in Book 7 though with a bit of luck, as Remus/Tonks does seem to have some nice parallels with Harry/Ginny. :)

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

I'm kind of hoping we don't... it would require a lot of re-writing if JK goes and gets specific on me. ;)

I agree that the vast majority of the romantic part of the ship happened between Christmas and the DoM (my stories have them going out for a drink after they drop Harry off at school after the holiday, and that's when Remus finally admits to himself that he's feeling some things he considers inappropriate). But that's why I said light flirting--stuff that they aren't properly aware of themselves, for the most part.